Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:11:00 AM (view original):
You can't recruit in your first season. New users aren't pulling in 400-450 as compared to 500-600. If you don't renew before the 2nd session, you don't know what everyone else pulled in.

Ahh, so you stop considering a user "new" after their first play season. I thought you would catch my implication that if they're going through recruiting, they've already committed to the second season, because...you know...that's how the game works. You're such a sweet and special flower, Mike.

I was thinking a little bit about why I'm finding D1 recruiting more fun than D3 recruiting.

For me, it's the same reason that it's more fun playing in a fuller conference. You get to play against real live human beings. It's more challenging and you need to be more strategic. You can interact with the person and say "GG sir!" or "I'll get you next time you dirty rat".

And for me, this is exactly how I feel about recruiting. At D1, I'm constantly battling other human users. Every season I've had good recruiting battles.

But at D3, I'm battling sims 99% of the time. I realize you'll lose more battles if you're going against humans but isn't that the whole point? To compete against one another vs a computer? Isn't that what this game is supposed to be about? Population size is the cause of this a little bit but it's mostly the way the system is set up IMHO.

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 11:04:00 AM (view original):
"what are you doing to help them understand that they have access to the same recruits you are getting? "

You mean before they quit playing the game for good after trying it out for 1 season?

If the game is designed in a way that it's the responsibility of the current users to ensure that new users understand how to play then it's a poorly designed game.

It isn't anyone's "responsibility" to teach new users how to play, and that isn't the point. They have access to the same players you're getting. It doesn't mean they need to, or even should recruit primarily from the D1 pool. It's a way to play, but it isn't the only way, and not necessarily the best, unless you're mostly concerned about keeping up with OVR (which is definitely not the best way to play).

But if you feel bad about beating a new player by 50 points instead of 40 - I'm not suggesting you should, but if you do - there are certainly steps you can take to assuage your conscience.

What matters is whether or not there are structural barriers to them getting recruits that you're getting. There currently are no such barriers. There used to be such barriers. And placing caps on divisions, reducing the pool available to them by 2/3 and forcing them to compete with those big, bad scary dynasties (with existing huge prestige advantages) for the recruits at the top of the capped pool, that would functionally re-institute those barriers.

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:11:00 AM (view original):
You can't recruit in your first season. New users aren't pulling in 400-450 as compared to 500-600. If you don't renew before the 2nd session, you don't know what everyone else pulled in.

Ahh, so you stop considering a user "new" after their first play season. I thought you would catch my implication that if they're going through recruiting, they've already committed to the second season, because...you know...that's how the game works. You're such a sweet and special flower, Mike.

If they're going playing a second season, they didn't give up after their first season.

Which is what everyone else, but you apparently, is discussing, snowflake.

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 11:20:00 AM (view original):
I was thinking a little bit about why I'm finding D1 recruiting more fun than D3 recruiting.

For me, it's the same reason that it's more fun playing in a fuller conference. You get to play against real live human beings. It's more challenging and you need to be more strategic. You can interact with the person and say "GG sir!" or "I'll get you next time you dirty rat".

And for me, this is exactly how I feel about recruiting. At D1, I'm constantly battling other human users. Every season I've had good recruiting battles.

But at D3, I'm battling sims 99% of the time. I realize you'll lose more battles if you're going against humans but isn't that the whole point? To compete against one another vs a computer? Isn't that what this game is supposed to be about? Population size is the cause of this a little bit but it's mostly the way the system is set up IMHO.

Are you not allowed to move to D1 if that's what you enjoy more?

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:24:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 11:20:00 AM (view original):
I was thinking a little bit about why I'm finding D1 recruiting more fun than D3 recruiting.

For me, it's the same reason that it's more fun playing in a fuller conference. You get to play against real live human beings. It's more challenging and you need to be more strategic. You can interact with the person and say "GG sir!" or "I'll get you next time you dirty rat".

And for me, this is exactly how I feel about recruiting. At D1, I'm constantly battling other human users. Every season I've had good recruiting battles.

But at D3, I'm battling sims 99% of the time. I realize you'll lose more battles if you're going against humans but isn't that the whole point? To compete against one another vs a computer? Isn't that what this game is supposed to be about? Population size is the cause of this a little bit but it's mostly the way the system is set up IMHO.

Are you not allowed to move to D1 if that's what you enjoy more?

Maybe. I might need to ask my mom first.

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 11:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:24:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 11:20:00 AM (view original):
I was thinking a little bit about why I'm finding D1 recruiting more fun than D3 recruiting.

For me, it's the same reason that it's more fun playing in a fuller conference. You get to play against real live human beings. It's more challenging and you need to be more strategic. You can interact with the person and say "GG sir!" or "I'll get you next time you dirty rat".

And for me, this is exactly how I feel about recruiting. At D1, I'm constantly battling other human users. Every season I've had good recruiting battles.

But at D3, I'm battling sims 99% of the time. I realize you'll lose more battles if you're going against humans but isn't that the whole point? To compete against one another vs a computer? Isn't that what this game is supposed to be about? Population size is the cause of this a little bit but it's mostly the way the system is set up IMHO.

Are you not allowed to move to D1 if that's what you enjoy more?

Maybe. I might need to ask my mom first.

I'm not your mom but I can answer. Yes, benis, you can play D1 only if that's the game you prefer.

But, rather than do that, you'd prefer D3 be tailored to your needs.

The world doesn't work that way.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:11:00 AM (view original):
You can't recruit in your first season. New users aren't pulling in 400-450 as compared to 500-600. If you don't renew before the 2nd session, you don't know what everyone else pulled in.

Ahh, so you stop considering a user "new" after their first play season. I thought you would catch my implication that if they're going through recruiting, they've already committed to the second season, because...you know...that's how the game works. You're such a sweet and special flower, Mike.

If they're going playing a second season, they didn't give up after their first season.

Which is what everyone else, but you apparently, is discussing, snowflake.

Benis brought that up as a response to one specific question, is that what you mean when you say "everyone's discussing this"? I thought we were talking about what OVR ratings mean to the health of the game, and potential fixes (from those of us that see it as a problem, at least). Wait, are we "off topic" again in Mike's eyes? Sorry, big guy.

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 11:09:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/22/2017 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 10:48:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, I don't buy in to this whole "OVR means nothing" thing. D3/D2/D1 recruits are separated out as such because of OVR ratings, and there's a reason everyone looks for D1 recruits. It's a non-starter.

I didn't say it means nothing. I said it means little in how a game plays out. That's true, and it's always been true.

The argument benis is trying to make is that the gap between the OVRs of established dynasties and teams new players have access to is larger (which I don't dispute) and that this is an existential problem in and of itself (which I do dispute). Neither he nor zorzii have answered the clarifying questions I've offered up a number of times. Are you beating sims by more points than you used to, and if so, why is that a problem? Are you beating new players by more points than you used to, and if that's a problem for you, what are you doing to help them understand that they have access to the same recruits you are getting?

My contention is that a new player doesn't care whether he gets beaten by an established dynasty by 40 points, or by 50 points. What s/he cares about is whether there are existing barriers to their team recruiting the same caliber of recruits that the dynasties have access to.

A new player will care that they're consistently losing to teams that have OVRs 100+ points higher than them consistently. If they go through recruiting and pick up a bunch of guys between 400-450 OVR and the other human teams in the conference are pulling 500-600 OVR players, there's a solid chance that they're going to give up. There's nothing in the "Help" opening section about recruiting that tells them whether or not it's possible for a D3 team to get D1 recruits. Yes, they can read the forums and blah blah blah, but nobody jumps into the game and becomes a hardcore committed user in their first season.

If you make it so that D3 teams can only recruit D3 players, it'll still be difficult for newbies to recruit (hell, even more difficult given the smaller pool), but at least they'll end up with the dilemma of "crap, I saw that guy but couldn't get him, how do I get him" rather than "where the hell are these guys finding these players".

You're selling people pretty short. We have one example here of a new player coming in and demonstrating the opposite in this thread.

This game will always rely on a niche market. It's not for everyone. It's for a small cross section of sports fans who are also stat-heads and have free time and cash. People into fantasy sports that are completely disconnected from real players. And also commodity game players. Probably at least 9 out of 10 potential game players don't give this game a second look. Too complicated, too many numbers, no graphics to speak of. Basically the stuff that attracts most of us, who stick it out. Of that 1, many of those simply won't like some aspect or another enough to keep paying for it (I suspect the biggie is how long it takes to get to D1, but I obviously have no data). I think the best thing they can do to keep players who should be interested in sports simulations is to reduce the time to D1.

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 11:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:11:00 AM (view original):
You can't recruit in your first season. New users aren't pulling in 400-450 as compared to 500-600. If you don't renew before the 2nd session, you don't know what everyone else pulled in.

Ahh, so you stop considering a user "new" after their first play season. I thought you would catch my implication that if they're going through recruiting, they've already committed to the second season, because...you know...that's how the game works. You're such a sweet and special flower, Mike.

If they're going playing a second season, they didn't give up after their first season.

Which is what everyone else, but you apparently, is discussing, snowflake.

Benis brought that up as a response to one specific question, is that what you mean when you say "everyone's discussing this"? I thought we were talking about what OVR ratings mean to the health of the game, and potential fixes (from those of us that see it as a problem, at least). Wait, are we "off topic" again in Mike's eyes? Sorry, big guy.

Seems to me that "quit after 1st season" was pretty much the page you jumped in on.

I know you're not very bright but, when you join the discussion, it's not always what you want it to be, snowflake.

The world doesn't revolve around you.

This isn't the "real world" we're talking about. We're literally talking about this fake basketball game that we all pay a business for the right to play, and that business is having difficulty retaining users. I agree with Benis that the OVR rating trend he's pointing out (and all of the reasons behind it) are an issue that might prevent users from getting invested in the game because of the sharp learning curve that comes with recruiting higher division players from the get-go despite that important detail not being spelled out for new users up front.

Shoe, I get where you're coming from, but disagree with the idea that users would be more discouraged by a strict D3 pool than they would be by super D3 teams loaded with pull-down recruits.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/22/2017 10:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 6/22/2017 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 9:09:00 AM (view original):
Or it would make the experience worse. Veteran users beat new users regardless of the rules/guidelines. FACT!!!

I am not, I have played under 2.0 and 3.0. I know some things are better this time around and I would not want to go back. I know there are flipped odds for recruits but competition is better this way around in recruiting at D1, which is good. AP prevents super classes these days, which is good. Scouting, the way it was implemented is complicated, but more logical and a tougher challenge, it's good.

I don't like D3 and D2 not being able to sign players from the start like D1, fix this. I want the complete experience.

I haven't been able to put much time into my teams this year with work... I am on autopilot. But recruiting I have always enjoyed and I want it to be the best possible so you feel in it from the start to the finish.

Now at least we're being honest, and dropping the pretense of concern for protecting new player led teams from established D3 dynasties. This is about you not wanting to wait until the final day of recruiting to sign D1 rejects, but feeling like you have to in order to keep up with the OVR Jones's.

The good news is that you don't have to wait until the last day to recruit, if you don't want to. I scout D2 recruits in Texas most years as cheap backups, and every year I do, I see a half dozen or more that would have fit in on my team just fine, but end up going to Sims or smart D3 coaches when I pass on them.

Be honest intellectually or don't discuss topic. You know we all check around for D2 players either as a fall back option or as a hidden gem... I said let me sign D1 players from the first cycle at D2 or D3.

This is a niche game. I know lots of sports heads who have at least $13 to burn, but no one is interested. It's hard enough to convince someone to pay for the game. Once they actually play it though they'll probably either love it or hate it. So things can always be improved but it'll always be a hard sell and only appeal to a small number of people. Plus old heads keep leaving. So in essence WIS has it's own version of global warming, both natural and man made causes.

So we're down to perception. It looks harder to compete with higher OVR teams. And instead of relying on the same user relationships this game has always relied on to dispel false notions, and to clarify some of the finer points, we have a proposal to make the game functionally more difficult for new p,Ayer while simultaneously making them think it's less difficult. As with zorzii, at least we've dropped the pretense of actually trying to help new players.

Even if you accept the argument that retention is about perception rather than reality (which is still selling the kind of player who should be interested in this game very short, but whatever), I think the better option is a simple tweak to the welcome email. Add a section about scouting from your AD. For example:

"Just so you know, you can scout and recruit any level of player - you can select the projected division from a drop down on each scouting and recruiting page you use - but be careful. Players projected to go D1 aren't going to want to play D3 unless they have to, and those bigger schools have a lot more resources than we do. Still, it may be worth it to scan for some scraps that "fall off the table", so to speak. I hear our main rivals were pretty close to landing a top 200 rated pg last year, imagine how excited that would make our boosters if we could pull that off!"

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 11:09:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/22/2017 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 10:48:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, I don't buy in to this whole "OVR means nothing" thing. D3/D2/D1 recruits are separated out as such because of OVR ratings, and there's a reason everyone looks for D1 recruits. It's a non-starter.

I didn't say it means nothing. I said it means little in how a game plays out. That's true, and it's always been true.

The argument benis is trying to make is that the gap between the OVRs of established dynasties and teams new players have access to is larger (which I don't dispute) and that this is an existential problem in and of itself (which I do dispute). Neither he nor zorzii have answered the clarifying questions I've offered up a number of times. Are you beating sims by more points than you used to, and if so, why is that a problem? Are you beating new players by more points than you used to, and if that's a problem for you, what are you doing to help them understand that they have access to the same recruits you are getting?

My contention is that a new player doesn't care whether he gets beaten by an established dynasty by 40 points, or by 50 points. What s/he cares about is whether there are existing barriers to their team recruiting the same caliber of recruits that the dynasties have access to.

A new player will care that they're consistently losing to teams that have OVRs 100+ points higher than them consistently. If they go through recruiting and pick up a bunch of guys between 400-450 OVR and the other human teams in the conference are pulling 500-600 OVR players, there's a solid chance that they're going to give up. There's nothing in the "Help" opening section about recruiting that tells them whether or not it's possible for a D3 team to get D1 recruits. Yes, they can read the forums and blah blah blah, but nobody jumps into the game and becomes a hardcore committed user in their first season.

If you make it so that D3 teams can only recruit D3 players, it'll still be difficult for newbies to recruit (hell, even more difficult given the smaller pool), but at least they'll end up with the dilemma of "crap, I saw that guy but couldn't get him, how do I get him" rather than "where the hell are these guys finding these players".

This is spot on. Cap, get rid of pools, make one happy pool of players, D3 sees up to 540, D2 580, D1all. It could be less, 520, 540. And let everyone sign players from the get go. Easy to understand. Scouting will be the learning point. Then recruiting strategies will get developed by newcomers