More Edgar HOF talk Topic

I'm no sabermetrician but it seems like taking strike 3 never turns into a walk.
8/22/2017 11:29 AM
Yep, I just looked it up. Amazingly, it has never happened.
8/22/2017 11:30 AM
Maybe you are an intuitive sabermetrician.
8/22/2017 11:50 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2017 9:24:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure. Since BL thinks D2 is comparable to MLB, D1 might be comparable to some yet uninvented form of baseball.
Where did I say it was comparable?
8/22/2017 11:53 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2017 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2017 9:24:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure. Since BL thinks D2 is comparable to MLB, D1 might be comparable to some yet uninvented form of baseball.
Where did I say it was comparable?
You compared your crap D2 experience to MLB. Key word is "compared".
8/22/2017 12:11 PM
Posted by kermit on 8/22/2017 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Maybe you are an intuitive sabermetrician.
How does it pay?
8/22/2017 1:26 PM
Posted by wylie715 on 8/19/2017 7:54:00 PM (view original):
as tec said, it is situational. If the score is 2 - 2, 2 outs, men on 1st and 3rd in the bottom of the 9th and Edgar is up, I'd much rather he swing at a hittable pitch than try to draw a walk. Unless it was Griffey Jr hitting behind him, the next batter was not as good a hitter as Edgar, and the odds are better EM gets a hit than anyone else.
If the score is 3 -0 in the bottom of the 9th, 2 outs and 1 man on, by all means walk. we need the baserunners.
Except tec doesn't apply his own standards equally. As I pointed out, Ted Williams walked at a higher rate than Edgar with RISP and two outs and RISP. So if Edgar's walks make him a poor situational hitter, by tec's own standards, he thinks Williams was a weak situational hitter.

Tec clearly said he wants his best hitters swinging the bat. I guarantee Ted was the best hitter on his team all but 1-2 years of his career.

And tec will throw up another smokescreen saying he didn't bring up Williams, but the standard he's applying to Edgar means Williams should have been a better hitter.
8/22/2017 1:28 PM
Posted by edsortails on 8/22/2017 1:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kermit on 8/22/2017 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Maybe you are an intuitive sabermetrician.
How does it pay?
With money
8/22/2017 1:59 PM
Posted by edsortails on 8/22/2017 1:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kermit on 8/22/2017 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Maybe you are an intuitive sabermetrician.
How does it pay?
Slightly more than a DI baseball player.
8/22/2017 2:08 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 8/22/2017 1:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wylie715 on 8/19/2017 7:54:00 PM (view original):
as tec said, it is situational. If the score is 2 - 2, 2 outs, men on 1st and 3rd in the bottom of the 9th and Edgar is up, I'd much rather he swing at a hittable pitch than try to draw a walk. Unless it was Griffey Jr hitting behind him, the next batter was not as good a hitter as Edgar, and the odds are better EM gets a hit than anyone else.
If the score is 3 -0 in the bottom of the 9th, 2 outs and 1 man on, by all means walk. we need the baserunners.
Except tec doesn't apply his own standards equally. As I pointed out, Ted Williams walked at a higher rate than Edgar with RISP and two outs and RISP. So if Edgar's walks make him a poor situational hitter, by tec's own standards, he thinks Williams was a weak situational hitter.

Tec clearly said he wants his best hitters swinging the bat. I guarantee Ted was the best hitter on his team all but 1-2 years of his career.

And tec will throw up another smokescreen saying he didn't bring up Williams, but the standard he's applying to Edgar means Williams should have been a better hitter.
I'm really tryng to give you credit for being smarter and more sincere with your arguments than BL, but you're doing everything possible to prevent that from happening.

I asked a legitimate question that you refused to answer about Williams.

The Mariners lineup was stocked with great hitters over the years around Martinez . . . Junior, ARod, and even Buhner (not as great, but productive). I would assume that Martinez often had a decent hitter behind him offering lineup protection so that they couldn't just pitch around him to pitch to the next guy.

Who hit behind Williams to offer him lineup protection?

As I mentioned earlier, you can't just dump Williams into the conversation and then run away. Well, I guess you can if you can't support whatever argument you're trying to make, blpsops.
8/22/2017 2:16 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2017 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/21/2017 11:19:00 PM (view original):
Thomas played 400 more games in the field than did Martinez. And was a better hitter.
True but they were both primarily DHs who didn't win pennants.

The pennant argument is irrelevant.
Well, if i wasn't clear, I'm not all that enthused about Frank Thomas being in the HOF either.... But his qualifications exceed Edgar's. Frankly (no pun intended), any player who made the HOF by reaching some milestone while DH-ing shouldn't be considered with others who made the milestone playing FULL TIME (playing defense too)
8/22/2017 2:24 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 8/22/2017 2:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2017 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/21/2017 11:19:00 PM (view original):
Thomas played 400 more games in the field than did Martinez. And was a better hitter.
True but they were both primarily DHs who didn't win pennants.

The pennant argument is irrelevant.
Well, if i wasn't clear, I'm not all that enthused about Frank Thomas being in the HOF either.... But his qualifications exceed Edgar's. Frankly (no pun intended), any player who made the HOF by reaching some milestone while DH-ing shouldn't be considered with others who made the milestone playing FULL TIME (playing defense too)
So should Relief Pitchers not be in the HOF either since they didn't pitch the full game and really only about 1/4 of the innings starters did? I am not arguing I am simply curious.
8/22/2017 2:39 PM
Posted by cccp1014 on 8/22/2017 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 8/22/2017 2:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2017 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/21/2017 11:19:00 PM (view original):
Thomas played 400 more games in the field than did Martinez. And was a better hitter.
True but they were both primarily DHs who didn't win pennants.

The pennant argument is irrelevant.
Well, if i wasn't clear, I'm not all that enthused about Frank Thomas being in the HOF either.... But his qualifications exceed Edgar's. Frankly (no pun intended), any player who made the HOF by reaching some milestone while DH-ing shouldn't be considered with others who made the milestone playing FULL TIME (playing defense too)
So should Relief Pitchers not be in the HOF either since they didn't pitch the full game and really only about 1/4 of the innings starters did? I am not arguing I am simply curious.
I've always struggled with relief pitchers. For some, I think they represent a change in the way the game was played (and managed). Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage presaged the modern closers, some of whom ***** and moan whenever they're put in and can't statistically get a save. Managers now pander to the save statistic, only using guys if the team is up by 3 runs in the ninth. If the team is up by 4, they put someone else in.

Therefore, I'm less beholden to the save numbers for many. Rivera's impact can't be overstated, but SAVE monsters are created and not necessarily great pitchers. That's why part of my HOF would be for "specialists", where DH's can be celebrated next to the modern "closers" next to Manny Mota and Vince Coleman.

I dunno, of all the modern "closers", Rivera might be the only one I'd put in. Fingers and Gossage as "relief specialists" were the pioneers, but at least they did it in the playoffs/WS. Guys like Hoffman and Lee Smith, I'm less convinced that they aren't just a function of THIS era. When Hoffman was pitching the 9th inning for San Diego on the rare occasion when they were winning a game when they were 20 games back in July,... Not really a high-leverage situation.
8/22/2017 3:10 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 8/22/2017 3:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cccp1014 on 8/22/2017 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 8/22/2017 2:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2017 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/21/2017 11:19:00 PM (view original):
Thomas played 400 more games in the field than did Martinez. And was a better hitter.
True but they were both primarily DHs who didn't win pennants.

The pennant argument is irrelevant.
Well, if i wasn't clear, I'm not all that enthused about Frank Thomas being in the HOF either.... But his qualifications exceed Edgar's. Frankly (no pun intended), any player who made the HOF by reaching some milestone while DH-ing shouldn't be considered with others who made the milestone playing FULL TIME (playing defense too)
So should Relief Pitchers not be in the HOF either since they didn't pitch the full game and really only about 1/4 of the innings starters did? I am not arguing I am simply curious.
I've always struggled with relief pitchers. For some, I think they represent a change in the way the game was played (and managed). Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage presaged the modern closers, some of whom ***** and moan whenever they're put in and can't statistically get a save. Managers now pander to the save statistic, only using guys if the team is up by 3 runs in the ninth. If the team is up by 4, they put someone else in.

Therefore, I'm less beholden to the save numbers for many. Rivera's impact can't be overstated, but SAVE monsters are created and not necessarily great pitchers. That's why part of my HOF would be for "specialists", where DH's can be celebrated next to the modern "closers" next to Manny Mota and Vince Coleman.

I dunno, of all the modern "closers", Rivera might be the only one I'd put in. Fingers and Gossage as "relief specialists" were the pioneers, but at least they did it in the playoffs/WS. Guys like Hoffman and Lee Smith, I'm less convinced that they aren't just a function of THIS era. When Hoffman was pitching the 9th inning for San Diego on the rare occasion when they were winning a game when they were 20 games back in July,... Not really a high-leverage situation.
Fair
8/22/2017 3:19 PM
I'd put Bruce Sutter in the same class as Fingers and Gossage. He was a big deal in the 70's in his role even though he pitched for some mediocre teams.

I also agree . . . the save is the worst statistic in baseball, and has fundamentally (for the worse) changed how relief pitching has evolved over the years.
8/22/2017 3:20 PM
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