Posted by brianjw on 9/29/2017 8:43:00 AM (view original):
I think you basically can’t use them, with one exception.

You could have Jeter as 24th player in chain and Posada as 25th.

But otherwise the chain won’t work. There is no one you can choose after Posada who is his teammate and is not Jeter’s.

Right, that makes sense, I think. Posada is allowed to have 2 teammates before him in the chain because he doesn't have any after him, therefore meeting the "two (and only two) other players" rule.

Posted by jfranco77 on 9/29/2017 8:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ozomatli on 9/28/2017 10:56:00 PM (view original):
Ok, apologies to anyone to whom this was not clear before. The 80M rules are as follows:

• You must construct a single chain of 25 players
• Each player you use (unused teammates are irrelevant) must appear on the same real life roster (team and year) of two (and only two) other players on your team (i.e. in my original example, Babe Ruth is on the 1914 Red Sox and 1927 Yankees. You would not be able to use any other teams Babe Ruth was a part of (i.e. 1932 Yankees, 1935 Braves, etc)
• Your 25 players must be from 25 unique seasons
• Your chain can only move in one direction. Once you pass by a season, you can not go back and again use earlier season (i.e. if you use a player from 2000 and then your next player is from 2002, you are unable to use any 2001 players)

I believe that address all of the questions. If things are still unclear, I'm happy to elaborate.

I don't know if this answers my question. I guess it does.

Jeter and Posada played together in 96 and 97. According to this, I can use them both (Jeter 96, Posada 97) and it doesn't matter how many years they played together, as long as I don't use any other teams that either of them was on.

I think that's right.

EDIT: Nope, I'm wrong, because let's say I wanted Wade Boggs to be next in my chain. I could twist him to the 98 Rays (no Posada or Jeter on that team), but Boggs was teammates with more than 2 players because he played with both Jeter and Posada in 1997.

I think the issue with your example is to find a player who played with Posada and never played with Jeter.

The next link in the chain in your example would have players who had Jeter as their teammate as well so that player would help Jeter violate the selected player appearing on only two rosters you are using.

Also, you would have to find someone who played with Jeter and never played with Posada.

A proper example would be 2003 Smoltz, 2008 Chipper, 2012 Kimbrel. Kimbrel never played with Smoltz, Chipper played with both. The only issue is to find a player who played with Smoltz and not Chipper.
Just my 2 cents!

Posted by brianjw on 9/29/2017 8:43:00 AM (view original):
I think you basically can’t use them, with one exception.

You could have Jeter as 24th player in chain and Posada as 25th.

But otherwise the chain won’t work. There is no one you can choose after Posada who is his teammate and is not Jeter’s.

Since Jeter retired after Posada, there must be players from the 2011 - 2014 Yankees you could use that didn't play with Posada like Hiroki Kiroda.

But that would only work if Jeter was after Posada in the chain. So it would be possible to use 96 Posada, 97 Jeter, then some later Yankees. But 96 Jeter, 97 Posada can’t be continued.

Posted by brianjw on 9/29/2017 9:28:00 AM (view original):
But that would only work if Jeter was after Posada in the chain. So it would be possible to use 96 Posada, 97 Jeter, then some later Yankees. But 96 Jeter, 97 Posada can’t be continued.

Except I’m an idiot who got this case wrong. There is no way to use 96 Posada, 97 Jeter because no one could come before them. The previous player in the chain would have to be on the 96 Yankees, and then 97 Jeter would be illegal.

These constraints are really tight.

this is making my brain hurt

Posted by jfranco77 on 9/29/2017 8:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by brianjw on 9/29/2017 8:43:00 AM (view original):
I think you basically can’t use them, with one exception.

You could have Jeter as 24th player in chain and Posada as 25th.

But otherwise the chain won’t work. There is no one you can choose after Posada who is his teammate and is not Jeter’s.

Right, that makes sense, I think. Posada is allowed to have 2 teammates before him in the chain because he doesn't have any after him, therefore meeting the "two (and only two) other players" rule.

I think ozo will have to clarify that wording. I interpret that as he can have two teammates - the one before him and the one after him. I didn't take it as the last person in the chain gets a freebie.

I'm not sure I get it either. On the bright side, I probably won't need to....

I have to admit I am surprised by the confusion here. I thought of this as a pretty straightforward theme... clearly, I was wrong. Commissioner learnings for the future.

I also don't feel the constraints are tight, as the case where two players play together their entire career like Jeter and Posada is a minority case. Most players move around and provide lots of options for teammates to choose from.

Also, Jtpsops is correct. The intention is not to give the ends of the chain a freebie. Posada would be able to have Jeter as a teammate and that's it, no others before (and none after since anyone after would also be a teammate of Jeter's)

I will post a full example roster later today / tonight, with notes.

This is a very nitpicking point but...

Which Yankee Stadia are you thinking of as “different structures”?

I think it’s pretty clear that III is a new building. But I kind of think II was a new building as well, although it was on the same site as I. Now my view is the minority; most people think Yankee Stadium was renovated not replaced in the 1970s. On that view we couldn’t use both Yankee Stadium I and II, but on my view they could be both used. It’s a bit arbitrary, but I thought we may as well decide before anything gets started.

I don’t think there are other hard cases, but I’m probably missing some.

Posted by brianjw on 9/29/2017 10:53:00 PM (view original):
This is a very nitpicking point but...

Which Yankee Stadia are you thinking of as “different structures”?

I think it’s pretty clear that III is a new building. But I kind of think II was a new building as well, although it was on the same site as I. Now my view is the minority; most people think Yankee Stadium was renovated not replaced in the 1970s. On that view we couldn’t use both Yankee Stadium I and II, but on my view they could be both used. It’s a bit arbitrary, but I thought we may as well decide before anything gets started.

I don’t think there are other hard cases, but I’m probably missing some.

I'll post a list so there is no confusion.

Posted by ozomatli on 9/30/2017 1:02:00 AM (view original):
Here is an example for the 80M league. This team is both terrible and way over the cap. I put it together in 20 minutes. No player appears on more than 2 of the 25 teams I selected players from, and each player moves forward through time, linking to another player.

Index	Player	Season	Team	Next Season	Next Team
1	John Kerins	1887	Louisville Colonels	1888	St. Louis Browns
2	Elton Chamberlain	1888	St. Louis Browns	1891	Philadelphia Athletics
3	Lave Cross	1891	Philadelphia Athletics	1894	Philadelphia Phillies
4	Billy Hamilton	1894	Philadelphia Phillies	1901	Boston Beaneaters
5	Shad Barry	1901	Boston Beaneaters	1908	New York Giants
6	Christy Mathewson	1908	New York Giants	1916	New York Giants
7	Ferdie Schupp	1916	New York Giants	1921	St. Louis Cardinals
8	Rogers Hornsby	1921	St. Louis Cardinals	1930	Chicago Cubs
9	Hack Wilson	1930	Chicago Cubs	1932	Brooklyn Dodgers
10	Lefty O'Doul	1932	Brooklyn Dodgers	1933	New York Giants
11	Carl Hubbell	1933	New York Giants	1943	New York Giants
12	Bill Voiselle	1943	New York Giants	1949	Boston Braves
13	Warren Spahn	1949	Boston Braves	1955	Milwaukee Braves
14	Eddie Mathews	1955	Milwaukee Braves	1966	Atlanta Braves
15	Pat Jarvis	1966	Atlanta Braves	1973	Montreal Expos
16	Steve Rogers	1973	Montreal Expos	1981	Montreal Expos
17	Tim Raines	1981	Montreal Expos	1991	Chicago White Sox
18	Ellis Burks	1991	Chicago White Sox	1996	Colorado Rockies
19	Andres Galararaga	1996	Colorado Rockies	1998	Atlanta Braves
20	Greg Maddux	1998	Atlanta Braves	2006	Los Angeles Dodgers
21	Wilson Betemit	2006	Los Angeles Dodgers	2007	New York Yankees
22	Derek Jeter	2007	New York Yankees	2014	New York Yankees
23	Ichiro Suzuki	2014	New York Yankees	2015	Miami Marlins
24	Mat Latos	2015	Miami Marlins	2016	Washington Nationals
25	Max Scherzer	2016	Washington Nationals

And this team contains the players in the first column right? (87 Kerins, 88 Chamberlain, 91 Cross, etc)?

So pick a player (Kerins), use him, then move him to a different season, which we don't use, and pick his teammate from that season? I think maybe I get it now.

If that's the case, this is really not clear in the rules at all.

Example: If you are using 1914 Dutch Leonard, you can twist one player on the 1914 Red Sox to a season after 1914. If this player is Babe Ruth, and you then use 1927 Babe Ruth, you can then twist one player on the 1927 Yankees to any season after 1927. In this example, you would not be able to use any players from 1915 - 1926.

From this explanation, you draft a player ('14 Leonard) and pick a teammate of his from that season (in this case, Ruth was a teammate of Leonard's in '14). You then move Ruth ahead, drafting a future season of his ('27).

The sample team posted above defies this. Let's look at '15 Latos. According to the example given above, you'd have to pick someone else on the '15 Marlins and twist them ahead...Scherzer did not play for the '15 Marlins.

based on my understanding (with jfranco's helpful comment above) - you pick a player - in this case '15 Latos and then the "chained" player can play on any team from a future season of the original player - in this case - '16 Max Scherzer. With the caveat about no shared teammates.

edit - you're right though - based on the rules this doesn't make sense.

I have't really read through the themes fully yet... But reading all these posts, I think I will wait a bit before looking at this theme. I don't want to hurt my brain trying to figure this out until the rules are clarified and clear to all.