Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 12:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/16/2017 12:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 11:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/16/2017 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 10:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 10/16/2017 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 9:52:00 AM (view original):
I mean, it’s like I said this within the posts you quoted:

“Obviously, there are situations where a ground out or fly out is better than a strikeout. And there are others where a ground out is worse than a strikeout.”

But still you say 'all outs are the same'. Pretty confusing at this point.

I don’t know what’s confusing about it.

The relative value of an out can vary up slightly or down a lot in a given situation but, when you’re talking about a full season from a hitter, it really doesn’t matter how he made his outs, again, assuming he reached base at a good rate.

The results of individual games, innings, or plate appearances are not determined by what happens during a "full season from a hitter". They are determined by what happens during the game, inning or plate appearances.

Stop trying to change the context to fit your retarded narrative.

Great, but when you (or anyone) says something like, Aaron Judge struck out too much this year, you aren't looking at an individual game or an individual situation, you're talking about his season as a whole. And, in that context, how he made his outs really doesn't matter.

If Aaron Judge K's 200+ times during the season, that's 200+ individual plate appearances over 162 individual games.

Are you suggesting that none of those 200+ situations in which he struck out mattered?

Do you watch baseball? Do you understand how the game works?

You seriously have to be the stupidest person on the planet.

Why do you constantly try to mischaracterize my argument.

Obviously those plate appearances mattered. But let's look at them. Of the 208, 121 were with the bases empty. So, while it would have been WAY better for him to get a hit there, how he made his out didn't matter.

That leaves us with 87 where there was someone on base. Of those 87, there were 2 outs in 33, so how he made his out didn't matter in those 33. Now we're up to 154 out of 208 not mattering (in terms of how he got out).

Of the 54 K's with runners on and less than 2 out, 20 them were with a RISP and no runner on 1st. So there, that's 20 plate appearances where an out in play could have provided a little value assuming it wasn't a pop-out, a line-out, a come-backer to the pitcher, a hard grounder to third (or even short with a runner on 2nd), or a shallow fly ball. If it's any of those things, no difference between it and a K. If it's not one of those outs in play, but an out in play that moves the runner, there is a slight relative gain there, but it's still a negative play overall.

Also, of the 54 K's with runners on and less than 2 out, 34 of them were with a runner on first. Certain outs in play here (all fly outs, line outs, pop-outs) are the same as a K. But, if he grounds out, he not only doesn't add any value, he takes away much more with the double play.

Do you understand now?

You're focusing on the wrong thing.

I like the research, did you find it how many of those 20 were with a tied game or down by 1?

If he makes ankther type of out of out instead of a strikeout, it could result in a lead change, which results in 1 extra win.

6 tied. Down by a run 3 times.

At that point, it gets a little ridiculous to be critical. Judge was a monster this year. To be concerned about a handful of plate appearances is dumb. Baseball players make outs. That's part of life. The pitchers get paid for a reason.

For comparison, Derek Jeter's best offensive season was 1999. He wasn't a guy anyone would ever say "struck out too much." He K'd 116 times that season. Of those 116, 14 were with less than two outs and runners on 2nd and/or 3rd. So, a WHOPPING six less than Judge.

This entire argument is so ******* retarded only tec could be responsible for it.

Given a previous season's stats, going into next season, which hitter would you rather have, bad_trump:

Player A: .300/.425/.600, 40 HR, 120 RBI, 250 Ks

Player B: .300/.425/.600, 40 HR, 120 RBI, 50 Ks

Hmmm, you're going to call me trump and then expect me to play your question game? No thanks.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/16/2017 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/13/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):
Hey, PSBL! You watching the Yankees/Astros game tonight?

Did you hear Smoltz talking about how the Astros offense is so much more improved this year because they cut down on strikeouts?

"Productive outs instead of swings and misses" were his exact words.

Will you be contacting him to tell him he's wrong?

Here's the post that started this thread, as a reminder.

Yeah, that's a dumb argument. The Astros weren't good because of how they made their outs. They were good because they made outs less frequently than every other team in the league.

So Smoltz was dumb for saying that?

Or, in other words, you're smarter about baseball than a guy who played in the major leagues for 22 years at a Hall of Fame level.

Please just come out and say that.

"I know more about baseball than experienced Major League ballplayers".

Just say it, and we'll be done here.

Well, to be fair, a lot of people labor under that belief.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Hmmm, you're going to call me trump and then expect me to play your question game? No thanks.

Everyone knows you won't answer because you'd say "Doesn't matter, both players are equal!" and continue to parade your stupidity around like a badge of honour.

Posted by tecwrg on 10/16/2017 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/16/2017 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/13/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):
Hey, PSBL! You watching the Yankees/Astros game tonight?

Did you hear Smoltz talking about how the Astros offense is so much more improved this year because they cut down on strikeouts?

"Productive outs instead of swings and misses" were his exact words.

Will you be contacting him to tell him he's wrong?

Here's the post that started this thread, as a reminder.

Yeah, that's a dumb argument. The Astros weren't good because of how they made their outs. They were good because they made outs less frequently than every other team in the league.

So Smoltz was dumb for saying that?

Or, in other words, you're smarter about baseball than a guy who played in the major leagues for 22 years at a Hall of Fame level.

Please just come out and say that.

"I know more about baseball than experienced Major League ballplayers".

Just say it, and we'll be done here.

So, appeal to authority is all you have left?

In 2016, Francisco Lindor has 15 sacrifice flies. Are you telling us that if those 15 sacrifice flies vs 15 strikeouts is the same thing? Because you did say it doesn't matter how the outs were made.

The Nationals had 763 runs scored and 63 sacrifice flies. Had those 63 sacrifice flies been Ks, its reasonable to think they would have only had 700 runs or so. Are you saying that those 63 SFs vs 63 Ks don't matter?

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 12:59:00 PM (view original):
6 tied. Down by a run 3 times.

At that point, it gets a little ridiculous to be critical. Judge was a monster this year. To be concerned about a handful of plate appearances is dumb. Baseball players make outs. That's part of life. The pitchers get paid for a reason.

For comparison, Derek Jeter's best offensive season was 1999. He wasn't a guy anyone would ever say "struck out too much." He K'd 116 times that season. Of those 116, 14 were with less than two outs and runners on 2nd and/or 3rd. So, a WHOPPING six less than Judge.

This entire argument is so ******* retarded only tec could be responsible for it.

Still that’s 9 games affected by that one AB. Most other outs would’ve brought the runner home and changed the outcome

Posted by sjpoker on 10/16/2017 1:22:00 PM (view original):
In 2016, Francisco Lindor has 15 sacrifice flies. Are you telling us that if those 15 sacrifice flies vs 15 strikeouts is the same thing? Because you did say it doesn't matter how the outs were made.

He's also grounded into 18 double plays. Are you telling us that if those 18 double plays were strikeouts, it would be worse?

Posted by d_rock97 on 10/16/2017 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 12:59:00 PM (view original):
6 tied. Down by a run 3 times.

At that point, it gets a little ridiculous to be critical. Judge was a monster this year. To be concerned about a handful of plate appearances is dumb. Baseball players make outs. That's part of life. The pitchers get paid for a reason.

For comparison, Derek Jeter's best offensive season was 1999. He wasn't a guy anyone would ever say "struck out too much." He K'd 116 times that season. Of those 116, 14 were with less than two outs and runners on 2nd and/or 3rd. So, a WHOPPING six less than Judge.

This entire argument is so ******* retarded only tec could be responsible for it.

Still that’s 9 games affected by that one AB. Most other outs would’ve brought the runner home and changed the outcome

But ALL hitters are going to fail sometimes. Expecting Judge or Jeter or whoever to NEVER strike out in a big situation is a ridiculous standard.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 10/16/2017 1:22:00 PM (view original):
In 2016, Francisco Lindor has 15 sacrifice flies. Are you telling us that if those 15 sacrifice flies vs 15 strikeouts is the same thing? Because you did say it doesn't matter how the outs were made.

He's also grounded into 18 double plays. Are you telling us that if those 18 double plays were strikeouts, it would be worse?

You're defecting. I am asking you specifically whether converting the 15 SF to Ks would matter. We can address the GDP after we get past that point.

Posted by sjpoker on 10/16/2017 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/16/2017 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 10/16/2017 1:22:00 PM (view original):
In 2016, Francisco Lindor has 15 sacrifice flies. Are you telling us that if those 15 sacrifice flies vs 15 strikeouts is the same thing? Because you did say it doesn't matter how the outs were made.

He's also grounded into 18 double plays. Are you telling us that if those 18 double plays were strikeouts, it would be worse?

You're defecting. I am asking you specifically whether converting the 15 SF to Ks would matter. We can address the GDP after we get past that point.

No, it's part of the point. No one ever tries to ground out to second base. Sometimes, you ground out to second and there's a runner on second or third and it's considered a "productive out." Sometimes, you ground out to second with a runner on first and it's a double play. Hitters that make a lot of their outs in play tend to do both. Hitters that make a lot of their outs via strikeout tend to do less of both.