Posted by Benis on 11/1/2017 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Zorzii- why are you still trying to explain your feelings on this subject to Mike, Spud and Poopman? You've said it 100 times already. There is literally nothing you can say to get them to change their minds just like you will never change yours.

Yeah. But still think there is something to learn since this time I did get a strat to get players in (4). And yet, you can't recuperate.

Posted by zorzii on 11/1/2017 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/1/2017 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Zorzii- why are you still trying to explain your feelings on this subject to Mike, Spud and Poopman? You've said it 100 times already. There is literally nothing you can say to get them to change their minds just like you will never change yours.

Yeah. But still think there is something to learn since this time I did get a strat to get players in (4). And yet, you can't recuperate.

Who are you trying to teach? No one is listening.

I mean, go ahead if you want to, its your choice. I'm just trying to help you out and let you know that whatever you're saying is falling on deaf ears. As long as you know that, fire away.

Posted by snafu4u on 11/1/2017 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by johnsensing on 11/1/2017 12:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by l80r20 on 11/1/2017 12:09:00 PM (view original):
"I am only top 165 this season because EES are not fair."

"Elite talent is a commodity. It costs what it costs. You know the risks when you recruit elite talent, and everyone plays under the same conditions. It is not unfair."

Those two posts separate the wheat from the chaff.

As usual, spud misses the point. In any event, 90 on the EE board is not "elite talent." Although I do agree that "fairness" is the wrong metric to be looking at here, since it's entirely subjective.

Two easy changes remove this issue, and also (much more importantly) make it easier for coaches to move to new programs and recruit in session 2: (1) lessen the comparative power/value of APs; (2) make many recruits have a "late" signing preference. Boom -- problem solved.

Except that every recruit not currently in a heated battle between DI's signs with a DII the first cycle of Session 2. DII's just need to camp on mid level DI recruits and accumulate AP's first session and it is near impossible for any DI school--even elite A+ Prestige with Max AP--to make a move as the first cycle of processing the all sign with the DII that has been camping on them. There is no penalty at all for DII schools recruiting "Elite" (by DII standards) players. If they get challenged session 1 then they can move their points on to another recruit before session 2, but if unchallenged they can amass such a lead that by second session its a guarantee. Would love to watch the press conference where the kid explains "After UConn lost their entire back court early entry to the NBA draft, coach not only offered me a scholarship, but also a start, and guaranteed minutes! Even though its been my dream to play DI ball since I was a kid, and I am blown away by the offer to not just play, but start at an elite school with such a rich history and prestige as UConn, I must turn down their offer in favor of Lander. [the crowd of reporters gasps in disbelief] The coach from Lander has been calling me as much as he is allowed since recruiting began, and even though I have always dreamed of playing at a school like UConn, never mind starting, I don't think it would be fair to Lander since he made so many phone calls. I mean, he really tried and put the effort in, so I am forgoing my hopes and dreams to do the nice thing for Lander's coach."

In this game, coaching D1 is designed to be difficult. It presents many strategy angles that make decision making complex.

"My elite primary recruitIng targets leave my school early." Waaah! "My secondary recruiting targets are getting too much attention from D2." Waaah!

Another strategy game, Risk... we have all seen more skilled players lose on unlucky dice rolls. But if you're playing Risk, you know that dice rolls can be your largest opponent, larger than your actual opponents. That's a part of that game. That's a part of this game.

If EE is ruining your squad for 2 full seasons, try a new approach. Recruit less elite kids with great skills; compile a line-up that's impeccably balanced with recruits on a talent level almost guaranteed to stay 4 years. I don't know... try something new?

These dudes don't like "risk", they simply want "reward".

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/1/2017 2:02:00 PM (view original):
These dudes don't like "risk", they simply want "reward".

Related to that, they don’t want to play a game of probabilities and possibilities, they want to play a game of absolutes.

The argument has never been that you should know what players will leave early. It’s that you should know what players might leave early. If a player is in the top ~20 by position in their class, and will meet certain core rating thresholds before their senior year, they can possibly leave early. It’s not unfair when all your players who meet that criteria leave early (even when they didn’t warn you by showing up on the big board), just like it’s not unfair if you get to keep yours while others don’t. Understanding probabilities and possibilities, and organizing your priorities to suit your taste for risk is absolutely a skill. If you are truly surprised by a guy leaving early, you either misjudged your target, or you misjudged the criteria. Either way, it’s user error, it’s not a broken system.

Posted by Benis on 11/1/2017 1:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 11/1/2017 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/1/2017 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Zorzii- why are you still trying to explain your feelings on this subject to Mike, Spud and Poopman? You've said it 100 times already. There is literally nothing you can say to get them to change their minds just like you will never change yours.

Yeah. But still think there is something to learn since this time I did get a strat to get players in (4). And yet, you can't recuperate.

Who are you trying to teach? No one is listening.

I mean, go ahead if you want to, its your choice. I'm just trying to help you out and let you know that whatever you're saying is falling on deaf ears. As long as you know that, fire away.

Well, except for Mike, Spud and Shoe, we are all for a change.

Dang, we don't care, we want the same game for everyone...

"Well, except for Mike, Spud and Shoe, we are all for a change"
how did you come to that conclusion? i don't particularly care for change..i play by the rules set forth by the game..i enjoy playing the game..if i didn't i'd find another game to play..

From what I have read/seen in the threads, the biggest and most valid complaint about EEs is that you can lose 3 or 4 guys at once and it is almost impossible to replace that much talent at once in session 2. Even granting the premise that the game should not be designed to allow Calipari-like talent restocking, a raft of EEs shouldn't devastate a team for 2+ seasons.

Right now, each EE is being dice-rolled independent of the other guys on the team. Why not add a slight modifier to the dice roll: the dice-rolls will be done in order of probability of leaving (i.e. from most likely to leave early to least likely to leave early). With each EE on a team that leaves, the dice roll changes for each guy going down the line to make it more likely that they stay (because they are likely to receive more playing time and increased role on offense, improving their draft prospects for next year).

So right now, it might look like this:
Player A -- 90% to leave
Player B -- 75% to leave
Player C -- 50% to leave
Player D -- 25% to leave

If you make it that the change that after a player leaves, everyone else's chance of leaving goes down 10%, it would look like this:

Player A -- 90% to leave -- GONE
Player B -- 75% to leave -- 65% to leave -- Probably gone, but 1/3 chance of staying
Player C -- 50% to leave -- 40 or 30% to leave -- Probably staying, but 1/3 chance of leaving
Player D -- 25% to leave -- 15 or 5% to leave -- almost certainly staying

My god, the straw men. There are so many of them. No one still playing has ever taken the position that "I don't like risk, I only like reward," or "I don't like a game of probabilities, I want to play a game of absolutes." When mike and koop make these types of arguments, they should lose credibility with everyone on these boards -- because they aren't defending the game against the actual attacks of people, they're defending it against what they wish those attacks were. That is a sign of weakness. If you're going to argue with someone, at least be honest enough to respond to their actual arguments.

Posted by zorzii on 11/1/2017 8:06:00 AM (view original):
Just to show EES can really change the trajectory of a team even if that team replaces players to the best of its efforts.

I lost four EES, three drafted in the second round. I thought I would lose two and battle for a spot in the NT.

I signed four players, one JUCO, one development player, one ineligible and one PF, not totally ready.

Results : I went from a top 40 rpi team (normally there) to 165 RPI. Yet, my team has a A prestige.

Nobody will tell me ees are skills now, replacing them needed skills but as you all see, getting the resources in the 2nd session did not enable me to put a competitive team on the floor.

Problem isn't the recruiting or "EE issues". The recruits you ended up with are not terrible. Here are the problems IMO.

1. One problem is a couple seasons back you recruited a terrible player who is now a senior. Sickles doesn't make my D2 roster and should have been cut at first chance. That's money and a scholarship tied up on a guy who isn't worth playing. A decent Junior or senior in his place is might have made a difference.

Posted by franklynne on 11/1/2017 2:38:00 PM (view original):
"Well, except for Mike, Spud and Shoe, we are all for a change"
how did you come to that conclusion? i don't particularly care for change..i play by the rules set forth by the game..i enjoy playing the game..if i didn't i'd find another game to play..

Do you think 3.0 can be improved? Do you think it should be? I'm genuinely asking. For me -- and apparently a lot of others -- the answer to those questions is yes.

Posted by johnsensing on 11/1/2017 2:48:00 PM (view original):
My god, the straw men. There are so many of them. No one still playing has ever taken the position that "I don't like risk, I only like reward," or "I don't like a game of probabilities, I want to play a game of absolutes." When mike and koop make these types of arguments, they should lose credibility with everyone on these boards -- because they aren't defending the game against the actual attacks of people, they're defending it against what they wish those attacks were. That is a sign of weakness. If you're going to argue with someone, at least be honest enough to respond to their actual arguments.

It’s not a straw man to note that zorzii’s constant complaint on this issue breaks down to thinking it’s unfair that some teams lose lots of the types of commodities exposed to early entry possibility, and some teams don’t. That is fundamentally a problem with probability, based directly from what he’s said today.

it is also about WHEN you find out that you are losing these guys relative to the recruiting cycle - as a matter of gameplay, 3.0 changed fundamentally the relationship between the EE timeline and the recruiting timeline. There were always EEs and some teams had a lot and some teams had unlikely EEs happen to leave.

Its not about the EE - its about the relationship between the timelines

Posted by mamxet on 11/1/2017 2:58:00 PM (view original):
it is also about WHEN you find out that you are losing these guys relative to the recruiting cycle - as a matter of gameplay, 3.0 changed fundamentally the relationship between the EE timeline and the recruiting timeline. There were always EEs and some teams had a lot and some teams had unlikely EEs happen to leave.

Its not about the EE - its about the relationship between the timelines

That’s fair, and I’d be all for having them announce earlier - without resources. But as long as recruiting is a commodity game based on a system of using resources to bid for talent, elite talent should never be easy to replace.