A place for Edgar Topic

MikeT23
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11/9/2017 7:46 PM
bronxcheer
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This thread took off like

11/10/2017 4:11 PM
bad_luck
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Oh hells yeah, mike wants to talk about the fact that he said EM “walked too much.”
11/10/2017 4:58 PM
MikeT23
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That's a myth I let you perpetuate because you get a big boner when arguing about EM's HOF possibilities.

I said that I'd prefer he expand his strike zone rather than pass the baton to a lesser hitter. But, you being you, asked "So you're saying he walked too much?!?!?!?" and I just let it go at that.
11/10/2017 5:13 PM
bad_luck
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Your exact words:

3. He was a 3-4-5 hitter but, IMO, he walked a great deal. Was he pitched around? Unlikely with A-Rod and Griffey in the line-up. Bad, IMO.

Link:
https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=474090&threadID=10396387#l_10396387
11/10/2017 5:28 PM
bad_luck
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To recap, you said "[Edgar Martinez] walked a great deal...bad..."
11/10/2017 5:29 PM
bad_luck
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That isn't materially different than "walked too much."
11/10/2017 5:31 PM
MikeT23
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Yeah, I don't EVER say **** to push your buttons. Like never.

FWIW, you've held onto it like a dog guarding the last bone on earth. What was that, 4 years ago?
11/10/2017 6:27 PM
MikeT23
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Quote post by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 11:21:00 AM:
Well, you seem to be compartmentalizing my argument.

1. I think he played long enough and I think he had a nice run of "peak years." HOF eligible.
2. He was a pretty good hitter but, unfortunately, he didn't play the field. That's a mark in the bad column.
3. He was a 3-4-5 hitter but, IMO, he walked a great deal. Was he pitched around? Unlikely with A-Rod and Griffey in the line-up. Bad, IMO.
4. It's not like when he swung, he made connection. He struck out once every 6 AB. Bad.
5. We're speculating but we seem to agree he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury. Bad.

All in all, he was a pretty good hitter. Maybe even really good. But he wasn't dominant at the plate during his peak and he didn't play the field. That's just no HOF material to me.
11/10/2017 6:28 PM
MikeT23
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Quote post by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 10:44:00 AM:
As I've said numerous times, I use WAR to accommodate you. I don't think WAR is completely useless, I mostly reserve that for dWAR. Beyond that, is there anything else in there you disagree with?

Martinez was a pretty good hitter. Probably better than I gave him credit for before two years of arguing his HOF-worthiness. But, nonetheless, I still don't think he was dominant, in part because his % stats are inflated by walking alot and I think middle-of-the-order guys hold more value when they put the ball in play, so I still don't think he should be in the HOF.
11/10/2017 6:29 PM
MikeT23
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Quote post by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 8:47:00 AM:
Let's try it this way.

I think it's fair to say his peak years were 1995-2001. He missed significant time in '93-94 and essentially put his glove away(sort of confirming your contention that he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury).
I think it's fair to say you love WAR. In those 7 peak years, he was top 10 in WAR once. 5th in '95 or '96(I don't remember).

Do you really think he is HOF-worthy when he can crack the top 10 just once in his 7 peak years in the stat you refer to most often?
11/10/2017 6:31 PM
MikeT23
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Quote post by MikeT23 on 2/6/2014 8:33:00 PM:
He wasn't a good one either. 4605 innings, 78 errors. Basically an error every 6.5 games. I suppose his range was within reason. Using whatever stat you want, he's slightly below/above average. At the beginning of his career before he quit bringing a glove to the game. I don't think he would have magically gotten better as he aged.

One could argue that he'd have been an acceptable 1B but I don't think it's a gimme as you implied. I'm sure players failed to move from a tougher position to an easier one but there's really no baseline to work with. Because failures don't stay in the bigs very long.

So, IMO, it's better to focus on what happened as opposed to what we think would have happened. He played some "meh" 3B earlier in his career then mostly just hit. I don't think we can surmise what he'd have been at 1b based on his limited 3B experience and 220ish innings at 1B.
11/10/2017 6:59 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 11/10/2017 6:27:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, I don't EVER say **** to push your buttons. Like never.

FWIW, you've held onto it like a dog guarding the last bone on earth. What was that, 4 years ago?
It takes a 2 minute google search. Not hard to find.
11/10/2017 7:40 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 11/10/2017 6:28:00 PM (view original):
Quote post by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 11:21:00 AM:
Well, you seem to be compartmentalizing my argument.

1. I think he played long enough and I think he had a nice run of "peak years." HOF eligible.
2. He was a pretty good hitter but, unfortunately, he didn't play the field. That's a mark in the bad column.
3. He was a 3-4-5 hitter but, IMO, he walked a great deal. Was he pitched around? Unlikely with A-Rod and Griffey in the line-up. Bad, IMO.
4. It's not like when he swung, he made connection. He struck out once every 6 AB. Bad.
5. We're speculating but we seem to agree he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury. Bad.

All in all, he was a pretty good hitter. Maybe even really good. But he wasn't dominant at the plate during his peak and he didn't play the field. That's just no HOF material to me.
Yep, that's the post where you said he walked too much.
11/10/2017 7:40 PM
sjpoker
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BL just looovvveess when Mike abuses him. BL has got Brokeback Mountain written all over him.
11/10/2017 8:33 PM
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