Morris was also the ace of a WS winning team for three different franchise. Did he win them alone? No. But he was obviously an elite pitcher in his time.

Posted by thejuice6 on 12/11/2017 10:02:00 AM (view original):
"Now I'm getting analyzed by a bunch of numbers and things that didn't exist when I played, he said. "Had they existed maybe I would have had a better understanding of what it would have meant to not pitch through pain, to not go deeper into games on nights that I told my manager, `I'm fine' when I wasn't. But I don't regret doing that, because if you go to the wall and never try to push down the wall, you'll never know if you can."

When I read this statement regarding stats, the first thing that popped in my mind was the Catfish Hunter debate that took place earlier...

Yep, same here.

How often did Trammell walk?

:::getting popcorn:::

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 10:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by thejuice6 on 12/11/2017 10:02:00 AM (view original):
"Now I'm getting analyzed by a bunch of numbers and things that didn't exist when I played, he said. "Had they existed maybe I would have had a better understanding of what it would have meant to not pitch through pain, to not go deeper into games on nights that I told my manager, `I'm fine' when I wasn't. But I don't regret doing that, because if you go to the wall and never try to push down the wall, you'll never know if you can."

When I read this statement regarding stats, the first thing that popped in my mind was the Catfish Hunter debate that took place earlier...

Yep, same here.

They’re really only similar in the way that they’re both mediocre pitchers who don’t belong in the HOF.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 11:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 10:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by thejuice6 on 12/11/2017 10:02:00 AM (view original):
"Now I'm getting analyzed by a bunch of numbers and things that didn't exist when I played, he said. "Had they existed maybe I would have had a better understanding of what it would have meant to not pitch through pain, to not go deeper into games on nights that I told my manager, `I'm fine' when I wasn't. But I don't regret doing that, because if you go to the wall and never try to push down the wall, you'll never know if you can."

When I read this statement regarding stats, the first thing that popped in my mind was the Catfish Hunter debate that took place earlier...

Yep, same here.

They’re really only similar in the way that they’re both mediocre pitchers who don’t belong in the HOF.

Other ways that they're similar:
- During their time, regarded as great pitchers, even though "new" stats don't seem to like them
- Were aces/workhorses for multiple franchises and won multiple World Series
- 4+ years in the top 5 for Cy Young Award voting
- 3+ years in the top 15 for MVP voting
- Right handed
- Great mustaches

And therein lies the problem with "new stats".

Hunter and Morris look very similar, according to "new stats". I would assume the immortal Brad Radke would be the third triplet in BL's book.

Yet Hunter clearly was HOF worthy during his career, as is validated by his election through the front door of the HOF. Morris was good, but not HOF great, and has to sneak in through the side door, via a questionable Veterans Committee election. And poor Brad Radke will continue to have to buy a ticket if he wants to get into Cooperstown.

If Mike Mussina had a cool mustache, he'd be in the HOF already...

Posted by tecwrg on 12/11/2017 11:50:00 AM (view original):
And therein lies the problem with "new stats".

Hunter and Morris look very similar, according to "new stats". I would assume the immortal Brad Radke would be the third triplet in BL's book.

Yet Hunter clearly was HOF worthy during his career, as is validated by his election through the front door of the HOF. Morris was good, but not HOF great, and has to sneak in through the side door, via a questionable Veterans Committee election. And poor Brad Radke will continue to have to buy a ticket if he wants to get into Cooperstown.

Perhaps the sole focus on stats of any kind is a problem. It doesn't account for attitude, toughness, and other intangibles.

Should Morris be a HOFer? I don't know. But to say "stats say no" is overly simplistic. The guy won WS for three different franchises, and was the ace of all 3 staffs. It's not like he just latched on to good teams for free rings. Clearly he had qualities that made him successful and helped elevate his team. I don't know how much weight that should carry, but he definitely has some HOF qualifications.

At least they elected both players while they are still living and they can enjoy the moment. It was nearly a trifecta with Ted Simmons missing election by 1 vote!

I think part of any HOF discussion should be how the player was regarded, in terms of tracking towards the HOF, during his playing days. Not only by his peers, but also by the people covering the sport.

What BL refuses to acknowledge, or just willfully discredits because he can ONLY see things through the lens of his precious "new stats", is that players like Catfish Hunter were thought of as sure-fire HOFers at some point during the course of and for the remainder of their active careers.

I don't think Trammell or Morris were ever thought of that way during their active careers, except by the "homer" fans. They were regarded as very good All-Star caliber players, but you never got the feeling while watching them play that "this guy is going to be in the Hall of Fame someday".

Even in today's game, there's probably only a handful of guys who fit that description. Guys towards the end of great careers, or at or approaching the peak of an already impressive career. Kershaw and Trout come to mind for the latter (though neither one has the required service time to even be eligible, yet).

tec's favorite logic:

if fans and writers were wrong about a player 40 years ago, that player deserves to be in the hall of fame.

There's a reason that Hunter and Morris don't belong, they're a dime a dozen.

Look at this list, it's just names that stood out. There are literally dozens of guys with similar profiles that no one thinks should be in the hall of fame:

	IP	ERA	ERA+	WHIP	K	WAR
Hunter	3449	3.26	104	1.134	2012	41
Morris	3824	3.90	105	1.296	2478	44
Brown	3256	3.28	127	1.222	2397	68
Cone	2898	3.46	121	1.256	2668	62
Buehrle	3283	3.81	117	1.281	1870	58
Finley	3197	3.85	115	1.376	2610	58
Lolich	3638	3.44	104	1.227	2832	49
Viola	2836	3.73	112	1.301	1844	47
Pappas	3186	3.40	110	1.225	1728	44

Maybe one of those guys should be in the hall and it's Kevin Brown. He's by far the best pitcher on this list and he's a very borderline HOF case.

Looks like Catfish has the best WHIP. By a lot. Do you not value how many baserunners a pitcher allows?

"There's a reason that Hunter and Morris don't belong, they're a dime a dozen."

Please email Dan Duquette and let him know this. The O's need some pitching and 12 for a dime is right up their alley.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Looks like Catfish has the best WHIP. By a lot. Do you not value how many baserunners a pitcher allows?

If they end up letting more of those runners score, it doesn't really matter.