Well I don’t think Vizquel should make the HoF. Maybe if he did what he did in the 40s yeah, but he played during the time of Ripken, A-Rod, etc, where you're expected to hit and field. Now we got guys like Correa, Lindor, Seager, so that expectation isn’t going anywhere soon.

But there’s a reason good fielders that can’t hit stay in AAA and good hitters than can’t field get chance after chance.

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 4:07:00 PM (view original):
Regardless of what the stats say, I saw him play, and the guy was to me the best glove in the game. Most contemporary players viewed him as the top shortstop in the game. The media did too. And he did it for a long time. The guy is an out and out Hall of Famer in my opinion

if everyone viewed him as such a terrific shortstop, then how come he only made the All Star team three times in 24 seasons?

If the media viewed him as so amazing, then how do you explain his lack of appearances on MVP ballots? The writers rank their top 10 best players in the league each year, and only once in 24 seasons did any writers who covered him deem him one of the ten best players in his league. And that was in 1999, where he finished 16th in the MVP voting, just edging out luminaries like John Jaha, B.J. Surhoff and Matt Stairs.

He was a terrific defender no doubt, but he was a ,.270 singles hitter in one of the most offense-friendly eras in baseball history. He's a borderline guy at best for me, and certainly not deserving of a vote given the ten player maximum on the currently stacked ballot. Even if you don't vote for steroid guys (don't want to argue that point) you can find ten guys more deserving.

Posted by 06gsp on 1/4/2018 5:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 4:07:00 PM (view original):
Regardless of what the stats say, I saw him play, and the guy was to me the best glove in the game. Most contemporary players viewed him as the top shortstop in the game. The media did too. And he did it for a long time. The guy is an out and out Hall of Famer in my opinion

if everyone viewed him as such a terrific shortstop, then how come he only made the All Star team three times in 24 seasons?

If the media viewed him as so amazing, then how do you explain his lack of appearances on MVP ballots? The writers rank their top 10 best players in the league each year, and only once in 24 seasons did any writers who covered him deem him one of the ten best players in his league. And that was in 1999, where he finished 16th in the MVP voting, just edging out luminaries like John Jaha, B.J. Surhoff and Matt Stairs.

He was a terrific defender no doubt, but he was a ,.270 singles hitter in one of the most offense-friendly eras in baseball history. He's a borderline guy at best for me, and certainly not deserving of a vote given the ten player maximum on the currently stacked ballot. Even if you don't vote for steroid guys (don't want to argue that point) you can find ten guys more deserving.

if everyone viewed him as such a terrific shortstop, then how come he only made the All Star team three times in 24 seasons?

Gee, maybe because he played in an era with Alex Rodriguez, Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Jeter, and Cal Ripkin and Miguel Tejada??

And I think it has been pointed out elsewhere on this forum that offense usually dictates MVP votes.

exactly, he was a worse player than all those guys, which is why he's not a hall of famer. i want my hall of famers to consistently be one of the best players at their position in a 14 or 15 team league, and vizquel was not. he was an outright bad hitter in 10 of his 24 seasons, in an era full of great hitters.

My memory of Vizquel is that he had the best pair of hands I ever saw, and he never seemed to make an error at the position that always leads the league in errors. Had a pair of brass ones too, was incredible when he bare-handed that ball in Seattle in the 9th during a no-hitter.

I also remember that he didn't have a great arm and thus couldn't always make plays ranging to his right. The stats back this up, Vizquel is number 1 all time in fielding percentage among shortstops, but way down the list in range factor at 74th. He was a great fielder, but he'd have to be the best of all time at the position given how bad a hitter he was, and I don't think he can be considered for the best ever with that lack of range.

Posted by 06gsp on 1/4/2018 6:08:00 PM (view original):
exactly, he was a worse player than all those guys, which is why he's not a hall of famer. i want my hall of famers to consistently be one of the best players at their position in a 14 or 15 team league, and vizquel was not. he was an outright bad hitter in 10 of his 24 seasons, in an era full of great hitters.

Um ok.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/31/2017 2:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/31/2017 2:37:00 PM (view original):
At least fielding percentage and range factor are based on actual, tangible numbers. You need to understand context, but if you know the context, you can infer something somewhat meaningful from them.

dWAR is a black box that is flawed. It's a POS.

The fact that you don’t understand something doesn’t make it a POS. It just means that someone with average intelligence hasn’t explained it to you yet.

For any discussion of how flawed dWAR is, all you have to do is look at 2013 for catchers. JP Arencibia led the majors in errors (11) and passed balls (13), and had a CS % of 25.3. He had a better dWAR than Buster Posey (more chances, more putouts, fewer errors (7), significantly fewer passed balls (3), 30% CS).

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/5/2018 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/31/2017 2:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/31/2017 2:37:00 PM (view original):
At least fielding percentage and range factor are based on actual, tangible numbers. You need to understand context, but if you know the context, you can infer something somewhat meaningful from them.

dWAR is a black box that is flawed. It's a POS.

The fact that you don’t understand something doesn’t make it a POS. It just means that someone with average intelligence hasn’t explained it to you yet.

For any discussion of how flawed dWAR is, all you have to do is look at 2013 for catchers. JP Arencibia led the majors in errors (11) and passed balls (13), and had a CS % of 25.3. He had a better dWAR than Buster Posey (more chances, more putouts, fewer errors (7), significantly fewer passed balls (3), 30% CS).

How can that be?

because dWAR, WAR and those kinds of stats are flawed statistics.

dWAR isn’t perfect, but no fielding stats are.

You know what is perfect? Tangible stats that you can count and that everyone calculates the same way.

I guarantee no matter how many people you ask or how many times you count, Giancarlo Stanton will always have 59 home runs in 2017. You won't find that kind of agreement with most advanced metrics.

is there a stat for juice

Posted by bagchucker on 1/5/2018 3:56:00 PM (view original):
is there a stat for juice

Gallons

Posey's total dWar would also be impacted by his innings played at 1B, where he measured out below average. Not defending dWar, but it could in part explain that apparent discrepancy between those two players that one year.

Perhaps, but there's also no way JP should have a positive (1.2) dWAR in a year in which he led all of baseball in errors and passed balls and had a weak CS%.