I don't get how people constantly question Omar Vizquel's HOF credentials. He's probably one of the all-time top two or three shortstops in the field. He certainly didn't hurt any of his teams with his bat. And they said he was a fantastic leader in the clubhouse. Dude won a Gold Glove at age 39. Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

100% in. He nearly had 3k hits as well.

Well, he was certainly a lot better than Jeter.

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 10:03:00 AM (view original):
I don't get how people constantly question Omar Vizquel's HOF credentials. He's probably one of the all-time top two or three shortstops in the field. He certainly didn't hurt any of his teams with his bat. And they said he was a fantastic leader in the clubhouse. Dude won a Gold Glove at age 39. Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

I don’t necessarily buy the premise that he was the 2nd or 3rd best defensive shortstop ever. And he didn’t hit enough.

Wouldn’t get my vote.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/31/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 10:03:00 AM (view original):
I don't get how people constantly question Omar Vizquel's HOF credentials. He's probably one of the all-time top two or three shortstops in the field. He certainly didn't hurt any of his teams with his bat. And they said he was a fantastic leader in the clubhouse. Dude won a Gold Glove at age 39. Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

I don’t necessarily buy the premise that he was the 2nd or 3rd best defensive shortstop ever. And he didn’t hit enough.

Wouldn’t get my vote.

For anyone that really criticizes his bat, they lose sight of the position he plays and what is fundamentally expected of that position. I would agree that his stats wouldn't be very impressive if he was a left fielder. But he was a shortstop. In a very durable one at that.

Historically he was recognized as the best defensive shortstop in the game when he was playing. He was a big-time clubhouse leader, his teams were consistent winners, and let's not forget that he won a gold glove at 39 years old. Not how many players have done that.

Guess he won't make the Hall of Stats. I'm sure he can live with that.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/31/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 10:03:00 AM (view original):
I don't get how people constantly question Omar Vizquel's HOF credentials. He's probably one of the all-time top two or three shortstops in the field. He certainly didn't hurt any of his teams with his bat. And they said he was a fantastic leader in the clubhouse. Dude won a Gold Glove at age 39. Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

I don’t necessarily buy the premise that he was the 2nd or 3rd best defensive shortstop ever. And he didn’t hit enough.

Wouldn’t get my vote.

Translation:. Vizquel doesn't rate well in BL's limited array of preferred advanced stats to merit consideration.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/31/2017 1:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/31/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 10:03:00 AM (view original):
I don't get how people constantly question Omar Vizquel's HOF credentials. He's probably one of the all-time top two or three shortstops in the field. He certainly didn't hurt any of his teams with his bat. And they said he was a fantastic leader in the clubhouse. Dude won a Gold Glove at age 39. Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

I don’t necessarily buy the premise that he was the 2nd or 3rd best defensive shortstop ever. And he didn’t hit enough.

Wouldn’t get my vote.

Translation:. Vizquel doesn't rate well in BL's limited array of preferred advanced stats to merit consideration.

There's actually a conversation on Twitter about that. Seems that a lot of pretty smart baseball writers and stat guys really question the advanced defensive stats that BL probably looks at. I don't see how the baseball stats that I know that measure defense are very reliable.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/31/2017 1:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/31/2017 11:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 12/31/2017 10:03:00 AM (view original):
I don't get how people constantly question Omar Vizquel's HOF credentials. He's probably one of the all-time top two or three shortstops in the field. He certainly didn't hurt any of his teams with his bat. And they said he was a fantastic leader in the clubhouse. Dude won a Gold Glove at age 39. Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.

I don’t necessarily buy the premise that he was the 2nd or 3rd best defensive shortstop ever. And he didn’t hit enough.

Wouldn’t get my vote.

Translation:. Vizquel doesn't rate well in BL's limited array of preferred advanced stats to merit consideration.

He actually rates 10th all time in dWAR.

I thought that even you agreed that dWAR was an extremely flawed stat.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/31/2017 2:00:00 PM (view original):
I thought that even you agreed that dWAR was an extremely flawed stat.

*All* defensive metrics are flawed. dWAR is still a better overall measure than stats like fielding percentage and range factor.

Pfffffftttt.

If I have a calculator app on my phone that says 1+1=75, and you have a calculator app on your phone that says 1+1=17, they're both ******.

You're saying that yours is better since it's closer to the right answer.

I'll disagree.

At least fielding percentage and range factor are based on actual, tangible numbers. You need to understand context, but if you know the context, you can infer something somewhat meaningful from them.

dWAR is a black box that is flawed. It's a POS.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/31/2017 2:37:00 PM (view original):
At least fielding percentage and range factor are based on actual, tangible numbers. You need to understand context, but if you know the context, you can infer something somewhat meaningful from them.

dWAR is a black box that is flawed. It's a POS.

The fact that you don’t understand something doesn’t make it a POS. It just means that someone with average intelligence hasn’t explained it to you yet.

Didn't we have this discussion about Trout? He had one of the best seasons ever, according to dWAR, then followed it up with a below average season.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/31/2017 3:32:00 PM (view original):
Didn't we have this discussion about Trout? He had one of the best seasons ever, according to dWAR, then followed it up with a below average season.

Sure.

Also, one time Chase Headley hit 30+ home runs a year after hitting FOUR.

Performance can can vary from year to year.