Has anyone seen a batting profile like this? Topic

Posted by LoboOne04 on 1/23/2018 11:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pjfoster13 on 1/19/2018 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by LoboOne04 on 1/18/2018 10:30:00 AM (view original):
Player Profile: Richard Miller - Hardball Dynasty Baseball | WhatIfSports

Here ya go. Note that my previous projections were based on a HS budget of 20.
Can you pls post what were your scouting projections (if any) on Troy Chatwood, Felipe Plata, Billy Ray Hull, and Turner Christians?
Hey hey, whoa whoa, you're not supposed to be in my league. How did you see all those guys?
Sequence of events:
[click hyperlink for LoboOne04]
[click hyperlink for Hardball Dynasty]
[click hyperlink for World- Alexander]
[click any of the Quick Links ie for Standings to bring up the 4 main tabs at the top]
[hover over World: News: click Draft History]
[open profiles for ~10 players picked after yours to see who ended up being good]
[go to Forums and ask you what you saw pre-draft to find out what you saw so that we could evaluate your thought process at the time, and use hindsight to identify what you could have done better with the information you had at the time, and how to apply that to the future]
1/24/2018 7:41 AM
Posted by LoboOne04 on 1/23/2018 11:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by damag on 1/19/2018 1:00:00 PM (view original):
Not saying this to criticize the draft pick, just that it adds to a trend I think I've noticed:

We all know 20 mil scouting isn't perfect, but I feel like more often than not it overestimates Glove ratings in particular. And I've noticed because I'm always looking for a SS. But unless I see 88+ fielding ratings I worst-case scenario that the player won't make it to be a "true" SS. Now if that makes him a great 2B/3B/CF, and I can use that, then that's fine.

He was a 93 glove according to projections. 94 still according to advanced scouting of 14. Long way to go to reach that, though, I know.
Sometimes we have to say you can't fault the process. You may have run into the limitations of 20 mil scouting. If he doesn't get to be a "true" SS, he could still be a fine 2B or 3B. Mine are usually drafted as SS but their ratings don't get all the way to 85+.

1/24/2018 8:58 AM
Posted by pjfoster13 on 1/24/2018 7:42:00 AM (view original):
Posted by LoboOne04 on 1/23/2018 11:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pjfoster13 on 1/19/2018 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by LoboOne04 on 1/18/2018 10:30:00 AM (view original):
Player Profile: Richard Miller - Hardball Dynasty Baseball | WhatIfSports

Here ya go. Note that my previous projections were based on a HS budget of 20.
Can you pls post what were your scouting projections (if any) on Troy Chatwood, Felipe Plata, Billy Ray Hull, and Turner Christians?
Hey hey, whoa whoa, you're not supposed to be in my league. How did you see all those guys?
Sequence of events:
[click hyperlink for LoboOne04]
[click hyperlink for Hardball Dynasty]
[click hyperlink for World- Alexander]
[click any of the Quick Links ie for Standings to bring up the 4 main tabs at the top]
[hover over World: News: click Draft History]
[open profiles for ~10 players picked after yours to see who ended up being good]
[go to Forums and ask you what you saw pre-draft to find out what you saw so that we could evaluate your thought process at the time, and use hindsight to identify what you could have done better with the information you had at the time, and how to apply that to the future]
Got it. Chatwood I liked all around, except he was a stamina/durability tweener. Didn't love the idea of taking a long reliever at 8 overall.

Plata's vR was only 57 for me. Too low for No. 8.

Hull was the most like Miller. Splits were a good bit higher, around 50, but much lower contact and eye, both around 60. 80 power. 100-81-94-93 in the field.

Christians to me looked like a very good closer, but only the third or fourth best in the draft.

So I rolled the dice for what seemed like the only true franchise-potential shortstop in the class.
1/24/2018 9:19 AM
Were it not for the 81 glove projection on Hull, I may have gone with him because of the safer splits.
1/24/2018 9:28 AM
Sounds like you did your research. Nothing more you can do on that one.

wait until I tell you a story about Bob Greenwood.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerStats.aspx?pid=7449501

and how I should have taken Ricky Coleman.
1/24/2018 9:38 AM
I meant copy and paste the entire row of numbers for each guy so we can review side by side. The draft is over now so all that matters is currents, so you're not giving anything away.

A cardinal sin is loving or hating one particular attribute instead of evaluating the entire profile, so that's the reason for my initial inquiry and the reason for this response, it's an important lesson
1/24/2018 2:09 PM
Chatwood
General
P L L 19 55 47 48 53 4 26 100 57 100 60 100 83

Pitching
P L L 19 26 58 83 80 82 92 99 89 59 59 65 0

Plata
General
P L L 19 13 49 97 83 0 23 95 35 82 61 87 77

Pitching
P L L 19 23 86 86 70 57 86 75 80 74 58 51 0

Hull
General
SS L R 18 100 81 94 93 25 72 58 61 55 52 85 74

Hitting
SS L R 18 62 82 51 46 48 62 63 30

Christians
General
P S R 19 6 13 99 94 9 72 87 17 41 49 78 77

Pitching
P S R 19 72 31 91 81 80 88 71 92 46 0 0 0

Miller
General
SS R R 18 89 93 94 100 13 82 53 42 37 33 93 86

Hitting
SS R R 18 99 83 32 39 100 59 52 66

Sorry for the formatting - I don't know how to fix that.
1/24/2018 5:52 PM
Oh man. Chatwood would have been hard for me to say no to.
1/24/2018 10:32 PM
How would you have used him? It's not that I don't see the value of a great long reliever. Andrew Miller seems like a pretty good chess piece. I just couldn't justify it compared to Miller considering where I am in the rebuilding process, with no long-term answer at SS.
1/24/2018 11:18 PM
I think I just got hosed by bad glove and arm accuracy projections. I do have a great fielding coach, so maybe he jumps a lot. I feel like my thought process was solid enough. But I recognize I've got plenty to learn in just my third season.
1/24/2018 11:21 PM

Sorry for the formatting - I don't know how to fix that.

No you're good, that's perfect. So first, some general principles-

1) Memorize the defensive matrix located on GM->Roster Management->Edit Rosters -> [click on link to any player's position] to get a feel for which positions a pattern of greens projects to

2) Over time you will get a feel for which attributes influence which stats

3) Over time you will get a feel for how far each attribute will develop via coaching and training over the course of 3-5 seasons before stopping. So once you see currents you can immediately estimate a player's full development.

4) when the list is released, for me at least the default order is by OVR descending. (I assume that's the default for everyone but I'm not sure.) So anyways, be aware of positional value because it affects which positions you immediately bump and which you immediately drop. In other words, a 75 OVR SS has different relative value than a 75 OVR LF, and a 75 OVR RP has a different relative value than a 75 OVR SP with low control, etc etc etc, based on things like fit-to-prototype and positional scarcity

5) Be wary of any of the attributes that are projected to be "100" (aside from INJ, which ends up being reliably accurate). So Chatwood has 100s for INJ PAT and MAK; Hull has one for RAN; and Miller has one for AA and EYE. The talent 100s are commonly over-projections, but you never know by how much. Don't rely on them

6) For pitchers- disregard the greens completely. For hitters- disregard the reds. For pitchers- disregard the blues even if you're NL. For both hitters and pitchers, get an idea of how much of their OVR is made up of yellows (long-term reliability) vs blues / reds (in-game talent which is good; also understand that "unused" attributes ie reds for hitters and blues for pitchers inflates OVR). For hitters- speed and BR is basically cool no matter what as you'd rather have it than not; the blue BR is more valuable than pure yellow speed imo, so like 50 speed 100 BR is better than 100 speed 50 BR imo

7) Get an overall picture for each guy rather than picking and choosing one or two attributes you really love or really hate

Ok, all that being said, I'll make observations about this group of guys

Chatwood:
For pitchers the first two attributes I observe are DUR and STAM, because I want to know what type of pitcher we have. DUR values will span between 15-35 for "starters" and usually 50+ for relievers. In general, add D+S together to see if it is higher or lower than 100 and that ends up being a general IP barometer (200 for SP 80 for RP). DUR 25 would put him right in the medium range for a starter (and 75 stam would put him right in the medium range because it basically equates to 100 pitches every 5 days); but 58 stam is 25 + 58 = 83 so he projects to either be a starter with a low pitch count, or a long reliever, or a setup who can pitch maybe 3 out of every 5 days depending on pitch count. You want starters to have Control of at least 80 so that they don't give up free runs and so that you don't have to pull them, so 83 is within a normal range for a ML starter, nothing special but meets the general baseline. Splits near 80+ range project well above average (65ish) so his OAV will be low. Strikeouts and double-plays are very high which makes a bigger difference in a hitters' park such as Texas and also when you have good infielders. 4 pitches with a strong P1, below par P2, pretty good P3-P4 so his average pitch # is standard for a talented starter. This type of player is typically greater than 75 OVR (with all the yellows this one could be 80+) and comparable veterans can command about $10M per season on the free agent market. As for possible overprojections- usually a pitcher is better against their "strong side" so if it says 80 vL and 82 vR, maybe it ends up being 80vL and 72 vR or 75-70 or whatever, but even that level of "disappointment" would still be quite good. You'd love to get a player like this 8th overall even with the low Stam because although he won't get 200 IP, he checks literally every other box for a prototype #1-2 starter

Plata
DUR + STAM = 119 so he projects to more of a "workhorse" SP in terms of innings, 86 control checks that box, 70-57 splits are fairly common for ML LHP. if the 70-57 is over-projected then this pick could be a bust, but if it's under-projected it could represent value, so definitely more of risk-reward here; Like Chatwood the VEL and GB adds a bit of value to your specific team as an ERA modifier, and his pitches project slightly better than average. Projects to #3 starter on an average team, #4 starter on a good team, or maybe a #2 if they underprojected him; probably stops in the 75-78 OVR range which ends up being fringe type-A/type-B in Free agency and commands between $5-$8M per season on the FA market. Not the best value for 8th overall but pitching is pitching and you can do worse. In the top-10 you're trying to land an All-Star at any position, or every once in a blue moon a HOF caliber guy who slips thru the cracks. With him, you'll get a ML player and you'll get value out of his first 5 ML seasons, but after that you'd rather trade him than pay him

Hull
Medical red flag, anything under 60-70 can be tricky, esp early in their low minors career when it's still developing in the 50s. Be very cautious; DUR red flag, anything under 80 needs frequent rest at the ML level; on a positive note, has an attractive defensive profile and fills positional scarcity; I don't love the 100 range and 81 glove, because we're expecting 100 range to be over-projected and 81 glove projects to below-par, and if that's also over-projected then he's going to really make a ton of errors at the ML level and that could make the pick a bust; has a defensive pattern that looks more like a CF pattern of 85-85-65-65 than a SS pattern of 80-85-85-85, but it could go either way; not enough bat for prototype 2B or 3B so he really needs to fit SS or CF; therefore, Glove is critical; bats L which is valuable for infielders; power for SS is quite rare (anything over 50 is usually good) so you're definitely attracted to 80+ if that's an honest projection but if that's a big lie then the pick could bust; splits and eye are annoyingly low-ish, where if he was a RH bat you might only use him as a 1/3 platoon vL because his vR is so low, but you probably end up using him only in a 2/3 platoon vR because his vL is so low, but since his DUR sucks you're planning on resting him anyways and therefore you're ok with this; definitely a future ML player around 70-75 OVR, guys like him often get $5-$8M per year in FA; it's ok to pass on a risky player and if somebody else hits then so be it, the downside of whiffing would hurt too much at 8th overall but if you're picking in the 15-25 range you're trying to hit the upside of a guy like this

Christians
72 DUR + 31 STAM = 104 which projects to a reliever who can reliably throw 1 IP two out of every three days and can throw 100 IP; control projects to 90s which is great, splits project to 80s which is great, strikeouts are high which is valuable for close-game relievers, P1 is 90s which is great, P2 is very low for some reason but it's not necessarily the end of the world; honestly the 46 P2 looks underprojected by 5-10 based on all the other attributes being SO high and a player like Mark Chang comes to mind; OVR in the 75 range with lots of talent makes him a core reliever and often commands $10+M in free agency; don't be afraid to pull the trigger on a reliever 8th overall if they're really good because you can get tons of high-leverage innings out of a player like this and it's quite valuable; None of the attributes seem unnaturally over-projected so this pick feels very safe

Miller
Medical red flag; very enticing defensive profile even with the overprojected AA; the rest of the profile matches the SS par sequence of 80-85-85-85; very unusual series of hitting attributes; as previously mentioned-- most of the examples people were telling you were like 20-90-40-40-90, as opposed to 99-80-30-30-100; something you will learn is that contact is a red herring attribute and inflates OVR without giving much value because it only impacts whether his outs are strikeouts or in-play outs; so you should get in the habit of only evaluating power-splits-eye-BR to determine slash line and SB/CS. Splits convert to AVG, eye converts to OBP (isolated discipline), power converts to SLG (average plus XBH); so you need to understand that 30-30 splits are horrible and that comparable ML players end up hitting around .200; 99 contact means he will collect extra RBI on productive outs such as grounders and sac flies, but he will hit into a ton of DP; he MUST reach his defensive potential and he MUST have the power and eye as advertised in order to justify those splits; so if he reaches those then he's a solid starter for awhile esp his first 5 team-controlled seasons, but after that you would rather replace him with another cheap option than pay him money in a 2nd contract because he's replaceable; typically commands $4-6M in free agency

Based on all this, I would have ranked---
Chatwood
Christians
Plata
Hull over Miller because Hull bats L

What ended up happening:
Chatwood- current DUR + STAM is 23+44 so he will probably end up right at his projections near 25-58 give or take; in the minors he's a reliever and once fully developed this combo is fine to use as a starter in the majors; control can improve by as much as 25-30 over lifetime development so he will probably reach 80+, splits of 63-56 are very high for such a young player, so if he gets 25 to vL and 20 to vR then that's like 88-76 give or take; arm and gb are already elite and project to approx 90-90 just like they said; pitches are basically what they projected with P1 getting around 85-90 and P2 actually being better than advertised and P4 being lower (as if the scout flipped their places). This player is going to be excellent, arguably better than advertised, future All-star, would have represented value for the 8th pick

Christians- current DUR + STAM is 66 + 24 so no surprises there; control 75 + splits 64-62 is unbelievably high for a 19 yr old reliever; projects to 90-85-85 which is basically Mike Prinz but with strikeouts and GBs adding value; like I suspected his P1-P2 combo looks a little bit more like 85-55 than 92-46; players like this make 10 all-star appearances in their career, it's an outstanding steal for the 25th pick as his career projection easily justifies the 8th pick. I could maybe prefer him over Chatwood

Plata- DUR + stam is 23-65 so he probably gets to 26-85 which is 200+ innings; 61-50-40 projects to something like 85-70-55 which is almost exactly what they promised he would be; pitches 66-62-42-35 should end up right around what your scout projected, give or take; #3-#4 starter, worth pick 15-20 but not pick 8

Hull- greens are 85 (!!)-59-82-62, I don't know that I've ever seen an 18 year old have 85 range in all my 60 seasons or whatever. He could easily get to 99 range; 59 glove is a little low, in order to qualify for ML SS you are targeting a start value of 65 for both glove and AA because fielding instructors can be lame, so 59 glove might only get to 77-80 glove which will end up making lots of errors as predicted; final greens should be something like 97 79 92 85 which you can still play at SS; 44 DUR 56 INJ is a big concern as predicted; 69 power should get to 80 for sure, but the owner will need to ensure that injuries do not derail his development; 30 vL is definitely getting platooned out; needs micro-management in his early career until DUR and INJ improve but has nice potential in the 70-75 OVR range as predicted with emphasis on range and power; because of platooning he ends up delivering more value than his OVR on a per-game talent basis. I would probably rather have Hull than Plata in hindsight

Miller- greens are 70-48-80-63; big time ouch on the glove, he projects to something like 82-75-92-85. Glove is the one that you really needed to come through and it's just so unlucky; even if his glove was normal but his range or arm was low you could pick up a hamstring injury or wrist injury that would fill in the gap, but nothing fixes low glove except coaching and it's just not enough for him; 48 DUR 48 INJ is a problem as predicted and needs to be kept in bubble wrap early on; 51 contact is nowhere near 99 and will probably only get to about 80; power of 56 might only get to 70; eye of 75 is actually really good and should get to 90+, but 24-20 splits are pretty lousy and arguably worse than projected, he could get to 40-35 if you're lucky but that's basically the 1/3 platoon against lefties only; Pick is a major bust at 8th overall, he projects to bench player / util at best, not even a major leaguer at worst. His bat cannot play 2B or 3B, and his range + glove does not do well at SS or CF, so... that's a really huge bummer and I feel for you

In summary--- Miller's glove thing (and to an extent the vR being even lower) REALLY hurts, but the moral of the story is that all four of those other players were the ones you need to notice in the top 50. All 5 of the scouting reports were pretty honest in general, some of the individual attributes were a surprise to the good or to the bad but the general ranges of reds and blues were almost spot-on once you saw their currents. Because pitching is so valuable (1 vs 9 as opposed to 9 vs 1) and because it costs so much on the open market, it is usually a smart idea to prioritize pitching higher than OVR suggests. You had the right idea with SS in general because it's a scarce position and power-hitting SS is very good, but Hull would have been a better choice by default simply because he is the better side of the platoon, he automatically gets to play twice as many games just by existing as an LH bat. That one tiny observation would have at least saved you from Miller in this instance. But chalk it up as a learning experience, don't stress out too much because you'll have other opportunities. With experience your ranks will be more value-based and risk-averse and good guys will end up falling to you in later positions in the future, the Louie Kondou 's and Bum Sweeney 's and Chris Adkins 's of the world just like Chatwood and Christians fell to more experienced owners in your draft. After awhile you're the guy getting studs 25th
1/25/2018 1:47 AM (edited)
Thank you for the over and beyond thoughts, PJ. I was ecstatic when I woke up and saw that I'd gotten Miller, and sick when he signed. I really thought that the fielding was good enough that the hit tool, however it crystallized, would just be icing. Sucks, but I'll stick it out with him and see what happens.
1/25/2018 2:19 AM
MikeT would be better at answering this then I am but I've seen/heard of guys with 50-55 stamina being starters if they have durability over 20. It means they may throw 75 pitches every 6th game, but depending on park, conference and team defense, that is a big deal.

I could see Chatwood pitching between 130-150 innings a year, and with his ratings in the main categories those would be a very effective 130-150 innings. (I would also have him as a starter and not long relief. You want you best pitchers to pitch as much as possible).

As well, when you get into the playoffs, if you could have Chatwood pitch 5-6 innings every 4th day, you have a good advantage.

I honestly think you did very well with Miller. Sadly for a lot of us, the draft has become a very frustrating process with the fuzzy ratings and we are still trying to figure out how to best take advantage of it.

I think you have a good concept of the game and are asking all of the right questions. Its a learning process and it takes time. Just like with anything.


Edit: OH! I almost forgot, if you have the budget, get your medical up to $20 million. Miller has only 48 health currently. That can make or break a player's development. If he gets injured and you don't have the medical he may never reach the projections you want. But if he breaks a hand or pulls an arm you might be able to bump up that glove, VsR/VsL and power.
1/25/2018 8:03 AM (edited)
Thanks, hockey. After starting at 10 my first two seasons, I dropped medical to 6 because it seemed like injuries were far more rare than real life. Didn't realize a high medical budget had the effect of actually helping players develop.
1/25/2018 10:51 AM
Mike has a post here somewhere about it but medical is weird in HBD. Some owners go 0 medical and use it for other items. I personally love going 20 medical because you can put your guys on what I call the 'super solider program'.

Lets say that Miller goes down for 10 days with elbow tightness or something. He may lose a ratings point here or there.

If you have 20 million in medical and put him on the 60 day DL, he will recover multiple times. This means that he will become stronger then he was before he was injured.

Its a fun little trick you can play that not a lot of owners take advantage of.
1/25/2018 10:56 AM
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Has anyone seen a batting profile like this? Topic

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