Also, I'm not 100% sold on the "lines play as a unit" idea, myself. At the very least, I don't think it's a "simple average" scenario (ie, take the average of all DL STR, then average of TKL, etc). I've seen repeated evidence that either:

A) The lines play as individuals, or
B) There is a weighted average of attributes, depending on the type of play, location of play and respective depth charts

Let me begin by saying we don't know for sure, but we know that the Dev Chats say that there are 7 defensize "zones" or units. We also know that the Dev Chats say that those units are modified by the next closest zone or unit.

IMO, I think you may be giving this 10+ year-old code more credit than it is due IMO. I think the defense subroutine is fairly simple in that (i) the zone is selected, (ii) the average is selected for the contest from the attributes of the players in the zone, (iii) add an FIQ modification (plus or minus) and (iv) add a factor for the next closest zone with the variable being distance (only plus).

By the way, this is totally just my opinion. Much, much respect for gt_duece who probably has a better read on it than I do for sure. Also, my standard caveat that the Dev Chats are really old, but I think the code is mostly unchanged.

nitros (James)

P.S. I love these discussions.

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/11/2018 4:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by orangepace on 1/11/2018 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dukelegend on 1/10/2018 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/10/2018 11:42:00 AM (view original):
Also note that I've found Sacks for DEs can be affected by the DE opposite the player in question. Said another way, I've had a DE rack up a ton of sacks with a stud DE on the other side of my DL, then have a significant drop-off in his sacks the next season when a lesser DE is on the other side of my DL from him. (This is with basically the same schedule, year-over-year.... a bunch of Sims in the regular season, followed by five playoff games against increasingly difficult human competition.) I've seen it happen many times, in fact.

This is counterintuitive if you believe that individual player performance is independent of the surrounding players on defense. We expect that a player with another year of growth and Formation IQ would exhibit superior stats from the prior season, given a similar schedule, but it's not always the case. This leads me to believe there is some truth to the "lines play as a unit" statement put forth by WIS many years ago.

+1 here, I have noted the same thing as GT..I have also noted a potential impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart.

I'm confused here. You gave GT2's "Lines play as a unit" a +1, but then state you have noticed an impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart. That would seem to be conflicting.

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. The line could play as a unit, then the stat determination could be done based on depth chart, in which case you'd notice an impact in respective statistics.

Also, I'm not 100% sold on the "lines play as a unit" idea, myself. At the very least, I don't think it's a "simple average" scenario (ie, take the average of all DL STR, then average of TKL, etc). I've seen repeated evidence that either:

A) The lines play as individuals, or
B) There is a weighted average of attributes, depending on the type of play, location of play and respective depth charts

Related to my comment on his post, I do believe they are mutually exclusive. If the line "plays as a unit", depth chart placement for a DE (DE1 or DE2) would have no impact on the overall outcome -- ie. wouldn't change the outcome of the sequence roll. If placement within the depth chart has an impact, then the line could not possibly be "playing as a unit."

My opinion is that the DL is treated as two separate units: DT and DE. DT('s if running a 4 DL setup) are treated as a distinct unit and DE's are treated as a distinct unit, rather than the entire DL treated as a unit.

I'm also of the opinion that when the play sequence rolls a "Sack" result, the sack is probability assigned to the respective party. Ex) Sack is rolled and attributed to DE position. If DE #1 is a 10% better player than DE #2, I believe he will win the stat attribution would fall DE#1 55% of the time v. DE#2 45% of the time. Vice versa if the depth chart has the better DE in the DE2 slot.

Disclaimer -- This is purely my own opinion.

Posted by orangepace on 1/11/2018 4:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/11/2018 4:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by orangepace on 1/11/2018 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dukelegend on 1/10/2018 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/10/2018 11:42:00 AM (view original):
Also note that I've found Sacks for DEs can be affected by the DE opposite the player in question. Said another way, I've had a DE rack up a ton of sacks with a stud DE on the other side of my DL, then have a significant drop-off in his sacks the next season when a lesser DE is on the other side of my DL from him. (This is with basically the same schedule, year-over-year.... a bunch of Sims in the regular season, followed by five playoff games against increasingly difficult human competition.) I've seen it happen many times, in fact.

This is counterintuitive if you believe that individual player performance is independent of the surrounding players on defense. We expect that a player with another year of growth and Formation IQ would exhibit superior stats from the prior season, given a similar schedule, but it's not always the case. This leads me to believe there is some truth to the "lines play as a unit" statement put forth by WIS many years ago.

+1 here, I have noted the same thing as GT..I have also noted a potential impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart.

I'm confused here. You gave GT2's "Lines play as a unit" a +1, but then state you have noticed an impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart. That would seem to be conflicting.

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. The line could play as a unit, then the stat determination could be done based on depth chart, in which case you'd notice an impact in respective statistics.

Also, I'm not 100% sold on the "lines play as a unit" idea, myself. At the very least, I don't think it's a "simple average" scenario (ie, take the average of all DL STR, then average of TKL, etc). I've seen repeated evidence that either:

A) The lines play as individuals, or
B) There is a weighted average of attributes, depending on the type of play, location of play and respective depth charts

Related to my comment on his post, I do believe they are mutually exclusive. If the line "plays as a unit", depth chart placement for a DE (DE1 or DE2) would have no impact on the overall outcome -- ie. wouldn't change the outcome of the sequence roll. If placement within the depth chart has an impact, then the line could not possibly be "playing as a unit."

My opinion is that the DL is treated as two separate units: DT and DE. DT('s if running a 4 DL setup) are treated as a distinct unit and DE's are treated as a distinct unit, rather than the entire DL treated as a unit.

I'm also of the opinion that when the play sequence rolls a "Sack" result, the sack is probability assigned to the respective party. Ex) Sack is rolled and attributed to DE position. If DE #1 is a 10% better player than DE #2, I believe he will win the stat attribution would fall DE#1 55% of the time v. DE#2 45% of the time. Vice versa if the depth chart has the better DE in the DE2 slot.

Disclaimer -- This is purely my own opinion.

Stated as you've proposed, yes - they strictly must be mutually exclusive. I think the "impact" to which I was referring, however, was on stat attribution... not play outcome.

And somehow - perhaps how I set up my Depth Charts different from you; or how I call my defense; or ???? - I've seen the exact opposite from you. If DE #1 is better, I get more sacks out of my DE #2 (as long as he's also pretty good). Not every season, but most. I've tried to see if there's some explanation in the attributes, but I've had countless seasons with two DEs that were close, but one was clearly better in every meaningful way, yet the "worse" one got more sacks.

"Falls in a well, eyes go crossed. Gets kicked by a mule, they go back to normal. I dunno."

Posted by hypnotoad on 1/10/2018 1:05:00 PM (view original):
It wouldn't surprise me if a Sack is determined to have occurred first, and then personnel are weighted to determine who got the sack. Some tabletop sports games determine stats that way - rebounding in basketball in particular.

I completely buy in to this theory

Someone should write a book, "Fooled by Randomness - The GD Version."

The Chat which covers the last bit of information we received says they play as pairings.

Posted by bjschumacher on 1/12/2018 1:27:00 AM (view original):
Someone should write a book, "Fooled by Randomness - The GD Version."

Which theories are subject to this critique?

Posted by bjschumacher on 1/12/2018 1:27:00 AM (view original):
Someone should write a book, "Fooled by Randomness - The GD Version."

lol pretty much nails it.

Posted by kas1007 on 1/12/2018 2:00:00 AM (view original):
The Chat which covers the last bit of information we have received says the plat as pairings.

Can you link to the Chat you refer to? Thank you.

Posted by orangepace on 1/11/2018 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dukelegend on 1/10/2018 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/10/2018 11:42:00 AM (view original):
Also note that I've found Sacks for DEs can be affected by the DE opposite the player in question. Said another way, I've had a DE rack up a ton of sacks with a stud DE on the other side of my DL, then have a significant drop-off in his sacks the next season when a lesser DE is on the other side of my DL from him. (This is with basically the same schedule, year-over-year.... a bunch of Sims in the regular season, followed by five playoff games against increasingly difficult human competition.) I've seen it happen many times, in fact.

This is counterintuitive if you believe that individual player performance is independent of the surrounding players on defense. We expect that a player with another year of growth and Formation IQ would exhibit superior stats from the prior season, given a similar schedule, but it's not always the case. This leads me to believe there is some truth to the "lines play as a unit" statement put forth by WIS many years ago.

+1 here, I have noted the same thing as GT..I have also noted a potential impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart.

I'm confused here. You gave GT2's "Lines play as a unit" a +1, but then state you have noticed an impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart. That would seem to be conflicting.

Sacks as assigned to the unit seems to matter as where a player is placed on the depth chart. I have noted an increase in stats for sacks based upon who is in what spot for DE.

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/11/2018 6:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by orangepace on 1/11/2018 4:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/11/2018 4:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by orangepace on 1/11/2018 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dukelegend on 1/10/2018 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 1/10/2018 11:42:00 AM (view original):
Also note that I've found Sacks for DEs can be affected by the DE opposite the player in question. Said another way, I've had a DE rack up a ton of sacks with a stud DE on the other side of my DL, then have a significant drop-off in his sacks the next season when a lesser DE is on the other side of my DL from him. (This is with basically the same schedule, year-over-year.... a bunch of Sims in the regular season, followed by five playoff games against increasingly difficult human competition.) I've seen it happen many times, in fact.

This is counterintuitive if you believe that individual player performance is independent of the surrounding players on defense. We expect that a player with another year of growth and Formation IQ would exhibit superior stats from the prior season, given a similar schedule, but it's not always the case. This leads me to believe there is some truth to the "lines play as a unit" statement put forth by WIS many years ago.

+1 here, I have noted the same thing as GT..I have also noted a potential impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart.

I'm confused here. You gave GT2's "Lines play as a unit" a +1, but then state you have noticed an impact as to where the DE is placed on the depth chart. That would seem to be conflicting.

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. The line could play as a unit, then the stat determination could be done based on depth chart, in which case you'd notice an impact in respective statistics.

Also, I'm not 100% sold on the "lines play as a unit" idea, myself. At the very least, I don't think it's a "simple average" scenario (ie, take the average of all DL STR, then average of TKL, etc). I've seen repeated evidence that either:

A) The lines play as individuals, or
B) There is a weighted average of attributes, depending on the type of play, location of play and respective depth charts

Related to my comment on his post, I do believe they are mutually exclusive. If the line "plays as a unit", depth chart placement for a DE (DE1 or DE2) would have no impact on the overall outcome -- ie. wouldn't change the outcome of the sequence roll. If placement within the depth chart has an impact, then the line could not possibly be "playing as a unit."

My opinion is that the DL is treated as two separate units: DT and DE. DT('s if running a 4 DL setup) are treated as a distinct unit and DE's are treated as a distinct unit, rather than the entire DL treated as a unit.

I'm also of the opinion that when the play sequence rolls a "Sack" result, the sack is probability assigned to the respective party. Ex) Sack is rolled and attributed to DE position. If DE #1 is a 10% better player than DE #2, I believe he will win the stat attribution would fall DE#1 55% of the time v. DE#2 45% of the time. Vice versa if the depth chart has the better DE in the DE2 slot.

Disclaimer -- This is purely my own opinion.

Stated as you've proposed, yes - they strictly must be mutually exclusive. I think the "impact" to which I was referring, however, was on stat attribution... not play outcome.

And somehow - perhaps how I set up my Depth Charts different from you; or how I call my defense; or ???? - I've seen the exact opposite from you. If DE #1 is better, I get more sacks out of my DE #2 (as long as he's also pretty good). Not every season, but most. I've tried to see if there's some explanation in the attributes, but I've had countless seasons with two DEs that were close, but one was clearly better in every meaningful way, yet the "worse" one got more sacks.

"Falls in a well, eyes go crossed. Gets kicked by a mule, they go back to normal. I dunno."

"And somehow - perhaps how I set up my Depth Charts different from you; or how I call my defense; or ???? - I've seen the exact opposite from you. If DE #1 is better, I get more sacks out of my DE #2 (as long as he's also pretty good). Not every season, but most. I've tried to see if there's some explanation in the attributes, but I've had countless seasons with two DEs that were close, but one was clearly better in every meaningful way, yet the "worse" one got more sacks. "

Yeah, what this says...

To be clear I also think it is a combination of the zones nitros describes and unit averages. I don't pretend to know what it is exactly but I have experience with stat allocation of sacks exactly as GT explains with the DE.

pardon my ignorance

if there are seven defensive zones, name them and define them

I believe the defensive zones are:

1) Behind the line of scrimmage
2) Left and Right side, short depth
3) Left and Right side, medium depth
4) Left and Right side, long depth

Depth is determined by the defensive settings.

I think you have to add middle short, middle medium and middle long