Now let's move on to where Ball Handling does actually come into play - in real life and in HD. Scoring.

Curry's Stats

Take a look at his scoring numbers - over 20ppg for his 3 year career on >50% on 2s and >40% on 3s. This is real life, not HD so those numbers are insane. This is obviously driven by his ability to shoot but his ball handling allows him to get open looks and get to the hoop. Ball handling is a huge element here and he was efficient and effective all 3 seasons.

Here are Curry's Advanced Stats

Now let's look at his usage. His SO and JR season he was top 10 in the Nation in shot% for his teams. What does this mean? Unlike in HD, teams can go all out in trying to stop him. Constant double teams, box and 1, triple teams! whatever. He was a super high usage player who was also putting up incredibly efficient numbers.

Final point - look at Fouls Drawn per 40 minutes. #12 in the Nation his Jr season. Since he's not supremely athletic (as shown by Poopshoe's ratings) then how is getting fouled so much? Is it from sitting back and shooting 3s? Obviously not. It's driving to the hoop and getting to the line. This requires elite ball handling.

Now you’re just reading your own assumptions into the stats. I mean whatever, we all do that, but at least admit now that you’re speculating - a lot - about how the game works.

At the end of his second year, I’d have had both BH and passing at around 70. I moved his passing up, because he notched a lot more assists, which could indicate better passing ability or a changed role (likely both), but his raw turnovers shot up as well. So I left BH where it is. I think that’s the most accurate way to represent the attributes of a player who puts up those kind of stats in HD. Disagree if you want, but if you want me to believe it, you’ll need to show me a significant proportion of HD guards with elite spd/bh that commit 3.7 tov/game. And yes, I will gladly wait.

Posted by Benis on 2/21/2018 1:09:00 PM (view original):
Now let's move on to where Ball Handling does actually come into play - in real life and in HD. Scoring.

Curry's Stats

Take a look at his scoring numbers - over 20ppg for his 3 year career on >50% on 2s and >40% on 3s. This is real life, not HD so those numbers are insane. This is obviously driven by his ability to shoot but his ball handling allows him to get open looks and get to the hoop. Ball handling is a huge element here and he was efficient and effective all 3 seasons.

Here are Curry's Advanced Stats

Now let's look at his usage. His SO and JR season he was top 10 in the Nation in shot% for his teams. What does this mean? Unlike in HD, teams can go all out in trying to stop him. Constant double teams, box and 1, triple teams! whatever. He was a super high usage player who was also putting up incredibly efficient numbers.

Final point - look at Fouls Drawn per 40 minutes. #12 in the Nation his Jr season. Since he's not supremely athletic (as shown by Poopshoe's ratings) then how is getting fouled so much? Is it from sitting back and shooting 3s? Obviously not. It's driving to the hoop and getting to the line. This requires elite ball handling.

This is dead on. Curry's assist and assist rate way up his last year as did his TOs. Why? Because he was playing the point and was passing to Jr. College players. It was him against whole teams when he was playing Top 25 team. I still remember when they were ranked playing at Duke. He had 2-3 guys around him all the time. Curry's BH is 85-90, no doubt!

Sorry Shoe. Anyone who has Curry at 85 Def...the same as Jordan loses all credibility.

“Curry's BH is 85-90, no doubt!

Sorry Shoe. Anyone who has Curry at 85 Def...the same as Jordan loses all credibility.”

As I said, you can make a case that his college BH moved up to low 80s by his final season. So we’re not that far off.

I certainly understand the impulse to put him at 100 spd/per/bh, but that player’s stats in HD will look nothing like what Curry actually did in college. That’s not me saying Curry isn’t one of a handful of the best players this decade. He is. I think the takeaway here is that real life players don’t have arbitrary numbers assigned to them, and that HD simulation, while a fun game, would require a bit of work if the goal was accurate representation in real life.

"Disagree if you want, but if you want me to believe it, you’ll need to show me a significant proportion of HD guards with elite spd/bh that commit 3.7 tov/game. And yes, I will gladly wait."

I'm not sure I care much if you believe it. But if the proof you require means comparing HD statistics to Real Life statistics then I think we're at an impasse because you want to compare apples to oranges at this point (even more so than we're already doing). We already know the game engine doesn't function like real life - how many games have you seen in real life with 90 combined FTs?

Posted by brett3154 on 2/21/2018 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/21/2018 1:09:00 PM (view original):
Now let's move on to where Ball Handling does actually come into play - in real life and in HD. Scoring.

Curry's Stats

Take a look at his scoring numbers - over 20ppg for his 3 year career on >50% on 2s and >40% on 3s. This is real life, not HD so those numbers are insane. This is obviously driven by his ability to shoot but his ball handling allows him to get open looks and get to the hoop. Ball handling is a huge element here and he was efficient and effective all 3 seasons.

Here are Curry's Advanced Stats

Now let's look at his usage. His SO and JR season he was top 10 in the Nation in shot% for his teams. What does this mean? Unlike in HD, teams can go all out in trying to stop him. Constant double teams, box and 1, triple teams! whatever. He was a super high usage player who was also putting up incredibly efficient numbers.

Final point - look at Fouls Drawn per 40 minutes. #12 in the Nation his Jr season. Since he's not supremely athletic (as shown by Poopshoe's ratings) then how is getting fouled so much? Is it from sitting back and shooting 3s? Obviously not. It's driving to the hoop and getting to the line. This requires elite ball handling.

This is dead on. Curry's assist and assist rate way up his last year as did his TOs. Why? Because he was playing the point and was passing to Jr. College players. It was him against whole teams when he was playing Top 25 team. I still remember when they were ranked playing at Duke. He had 2-3 guys around him all the time. Curry's BH is 85-90, no doubt!

Sorry Shoe. Anyone who has Curry at 85 Def...the same as Jordan loses all credibility.

Exactly.

And going back to my defense example for Isiah Thomas - 70 BH is a typical D3 starting guard for a good team in this game. I don't think a typical D3 guard is smoking the Dukies for 20 points while triple teamed.

And yeah, the Jordan Defense rating is equally foolish.

Posted by Benis on 2/21/2018 2:15:00 PM (view original):
"Disagree if you want, but if you want me to believe it, you’ll need to show me a significant proportion of HD guards with elite spd/bh that commit 3.7 tov/game. And yes, I will gladly wait."

I'm not sure I care much if you believe it. But if the proof you require means comparing HD statistics to Real Life statistics then I think we're at an impasse because you want to compare apples to oranges at this point (even more so than we're already doing). We already know the game engine doesn't function like real life - how many games have you seen in real life with 90 combined FTs?

Lol, so it’s totally germane (that means “on point”) to compare projected HD attributes to real life draft positions, but to compare to real life statistics and cross reference HD statistics is “apples to oranges”. OK, Duke.

Posted by shoe3 on 2/21/2018 2:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/21/2018 2:15:00 PM (view original):
"Disagree if you want, but if you want me to believe it, you’ll need to show me a significant proportion of HD guards with elite spd/bh that commit 3.7 tov/game. And yes, I will gladly wait."

I'm not sure I care much if you believe it. But if the proof you require means comparing HD statistics to Real Life statistics then I think we're at an impasse because you want to compare apples to oranges at this point (even more so than we're already doing). We already know the game engine doesn't function like real life - how many games have you seen in real life with 90 combined FTs?

Lol, so it’s totally germane (that means “on point”) to compare projected HD attributes to real life draft positions, but to compare to real life statistics and cross reference HD statistics is “apples to oranges”. OK, Duke.

Like I said - even more so than we're already doing- which is the point of the entire thread.

But saying - show me some elite players how average 3.7 turnovers a game! is dumb. For many of the reasons I've already said.

At least comparing draft positions is more representative of how 'good' a player is. Comparing how many turnovers they had is dumb.

But anyway, continue avoiding the points I made about your assessment of his lack of BH because he had a lot of turnovers - which has little to do with ball handling in Real life or Fake HD. I didn't realize you didn't know much about either.

You are a stubborn guy.

Just say 'yeah you guys are right, I lowballed it on that one, it should be much higher' and move on. No need to dig your heels in.

edit- I take it back. BH is much more impactful on turnovers in HD than RL. So many double dribbles in this game..

Well again, you’re just reading your own assumptions about how the HD engine works. To each her own, I’m not saying you have to accept my interpretation. But for me, ball handling is the primary individual attribute (along with IQ) in taking care of the ball, ie avoiding turnovers. Passing matters too, but less, and is more reflected in assists and teammates fg%.

The idea that turnovers “has little to do with ball handling in real life or Fake HD” is laughable, but again, to each her own.

Again, lol at the idea that I’m the one digging heels in - considering I’ve granted one could make a case for a low-80s score by his final season.

Posted by Benis on 2/21/2018 2:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 2/21/2018 2:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/21/2018 2:15:00 PM (view original):
"Disagree if you want, but if you want me to believe it, you’ll need to show me a significant proportion of HD guards with elite spd/bh that commit 3.7 tov/game. And yes, I will gladly wait."

I'm not sure I care much if you believe it. But if the proof you require means comparing HD statistics to Real Life statistics then I think we're at an impasse because you want to compare apples to oranges at this point (even more so than we're already doing). We already know the game engine doesn't function like real life - how many games have you seen in real life with 90 combined FTs?

Lol, so it’s totally germane (that means “on point”) to compare projected HD attributes to real life draft positions, but to compare to real life statistics and cross reference HD statistics is “apples to oranges”. OK, Duke.

Like I said - even more so than we're already doing- which is the point of the entire thread.

But saying - show me some elite players how average 3.7 turnovers a game! is dumb. For many of the reasons I've already said.

At least comparing draft positions is more representative of how 'good' a player is. Comparing how many turnovers they had is dumb.

Not to put too fine a point on this incoherent argument, but in summation:

We both agree that real life doesn’t equate well with HD. But tasked with this challenge by the OP, we set out in our efforts anyway.

Benis essentially contends it is more valid to look at the median of guards who are drafted at or around #7, and assign Curry those attributes. Because that’s “how good he is”, or some nonsense.

What I’m trying to do is speculate on the HD attributes of a player with approximate production.

You may think I’m whacked for “lowballing” the BH attribute, which is fine. I’ve seen the highlights, the crossovers, behind-the-backs, the supposed trail of broken ankles. Ok. I admit I’m more of a boxscore guy than a highlight guy. And if I was a GSW fan, I’d still like to see the turnovers come down a bit. I would also completely accept the turnovers as part of the overall package. He’s generationally great. Not in “the greatest” discussion, but he’s great. And he was great in college, too, but it wasn’t because he put up elite level tov%.

Call it a green 70, as an aggregate of his college career.

LOOOOOTS of good information here. And stats and examples and explanations also. You two should be defense attorneys if your current gigs don't work out.

But using my eye test theory, i rule in favor of Curry BH being closer to 90 than 70.

I'll also add in that his pre-game warm-up BH show that he puts on is a second to none as well.

On the point of low BH= TOV, I would disagree. I would argue USG% is a much higher factor towards generating turnovers than BH.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?&pid=3695671

This is my all time leading scorer at my D3 Redlands school, and despite having 80 BH and 87 PASS he averaged 3 turnovers a game for his career. This is in D3, much less competition than D1. Curry's USG% his JR year was 38%, which will inevitably lead to high turnovers. I would really doubt that any player with a really high usg% (which in HD terms would be controled by distro) averages low turnovers.

Posted by kingsallday on 2/21/2018 4:48:00 PM (view original):
On the point of low BH= TOV, I would disagree. I would argue USG% is a much higher factor towards generating turnovers than BH.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?&pid=3695671

This is my all time leading scorer at my D3 Redlands school, and despite having 80 BH and 87 PASS he averaged 3 turnovers a game for his career. This is in D3, much less competition than D1. Curry's USG% his JR year was 38%, which will inevitably lead to high turnovers. I would really doubt that any player with a really high usg% (which in HD terms would be controled by distro) averages low turnovers.

80 BH! That guy can dribble and drive better than a future hall of famer!!

But yeah, you're 100% correct. You can't disregard usage.

You’re arguing a point no one is making. Usage is a function of coaching and player choices. People in HD can and sometimes do choose to load up their best scorer, and when that guy is not an elite ball handler, he’ll end up with crappy tov totals. 3.7/g is higher than I’ve seen from guards with “elite” BH skills, regardless of usage in HD. Doesn’t mean the guy is not a super effective scorer. Just not every part of his game is elite, or fully developed. Part of avoiding turnovers is also decision making, so I suppose if you’d rather argue that he just never advanced beyond a C level IQ...