Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mbriese on 4/26/2018 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wvufan76 on 4/26/2018 10:01:00 AM (view original):
Does anyone remember "vision" as it was a tool of recruiting in both GD and HD during the early days? If you had the ability to recruit a guy projected at D1 you could physically see him during recruiting. Anyone who was above your teams level you could not see. That is summing up how that worked for those of you who missed that function.

I am making an assumption that what ever "code" changes that have occurred over the years, eliminates the ability to use "vision" now. Until they get fully Worlds at the D1 Level, if this were possible again it might eliminate some whining and complaining. Just a thought.

This would mean higher prestige teams and veteran coaches would have access to higher level players than new coaches and rebuilds. If that’s the game they want to make, fine. But let’s not pretend this helps new players compete faster. As long as the game allows veteran coaches to park in the port of entry for new players, we are going to have new players getting walloped for their first few seasons, until they figure things out.

In general, talk of caps is textbook “solution in search of a problem”, and it’s not about a new player experience at all. What’s behind most of it, from its biggest proponents, is a desire to prevent teams underneath from “poaching” backup options.

You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?

I'll say it again - I don't care about "poaching". It doesn't bother me in the slightest. New users having to compete against teams with recruits they wouldn't possibly consider recruiting does. It is all about the new player experience.

If you don't think *most* of the biggest proponents of caps are primarily interested in their own teams’ abilities to get backup options without worrying about people reaching up, you weren’t paying attention during and shortly after beta.

Capping doesn’t “fix” the new player experience, if the problem is that they can’t compete with veterans. The teams benefiting from caps are the teams at the top of their division, who will have the advantage in prestige and experience in getting the best recruits available.

Since you like my sandbox idea, I’d just emphasize again that it’s all good if they want to make D3 free to play, and then just have two separate pools of recruits, one for paying customers in D2 and D1, and one for the D3 sandbox. But no one should pay for the “capped” sandbox, and no one should get credits for dominating it.

shoe, I think you have presented a good case for a F2P D3 sandbox. Capping isn't now and never was a good idea any other way.

To address grimacedance's concern, note that the free D3 pool would be separate from the paid D1/D2 pool.

"Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it." Anecdotal evidence certainly supports it. You present no evidence for your marketplace assertion.

"Marketplace assertion" - classic Spud, trying to sound smart using his big book-learnin' words.

I think there's a pretty even split on the whole "capping D3 AND D2" thing, but I see less people opposed to capping and sandboxing D3. I think a consensus on literally anything in HD would be a pretty big step towards legitimizing a suggestion.

Re: "LOL THEY ARENT PAYING ATTENTION IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN" - I get it; nobody cares about your negativity. Let people enjoy things!

Posted by grimacedance on 4/26/2018 5:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

I don't mind the idea of D3 turning into a free-to-play sandbox with no credits/rewards. Would probably help grow the game more than any advertising would do. My only concern is that it would highly incentivize D1/D2 players to create an alternate ID, get a free D3 team in the same world and use the scouting budget to scour for D1 players for their paid team.

That’s why you pretty much HAVE to cap D3 in that scenario, otherwise you’re just begging guys to cheat.

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Posted by mbriese on 4/26/2018 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Oh I'd be completely fine with just capping D3. That's where new users are. Capping all divisions seemed like the easiest blanket solution implementation-wise, but capping D3 and changing the cost/rewards structure solves a lot of potential new user issues.

I doubt WIS would ever make it F2P, but I think Benis' points around a discounted price with heavily reduced rewards are well-founded.

I don’t know. FC Dynasty is free, and it doesn’t even serve a promotional purpose. Seems like a good way to both constantly promote the game, and gently nudge people into higher divisions.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Everyone knows HD's new user retention rate sucks. D3 isn't fun. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why it isn't fun.

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 6:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Everyone knows HD's new user retention rate sucks. D3 isn't fun. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why it isn't fun.

But some keep telling us it's fun. How can recruiting be fun in a wait til the last day to see if you are screwed or not. The game is about finding a place where you get lots of recruits and that place needs to be empty.

To be clear, I like playing D1. It isn't perfect, but in some respects HD 3.0 Division 1 is better than the real thing. (No Adidas runners or AAU or blown calls by the refs or having to look at Tucson people.)

But D3 needs to be fun too. Right now it's not. It's as if the Adidas hustlers are working for St Rose and Cal Tech is hiring strippers.

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 6:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Everyone knows HD's new user retention rate sucks. D3 isn't fun. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why it isn't fun.

The new user retention rate has always sucked. The whole concept of having a D3 in a college basketball simulation kind of sucks, especially when it’s used simply as a forced stratification to suck money and time from users. D3 was popular when D1 was unplayable. It’s an appendix at this point, honestly I don’t care if it stays or goes.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 9:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 6:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Everyone knows HD's new user retention rate sucks. D3 isn't fun. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why it isn't fun.

The new user retention rate has always sucked. The whole concept of having a D3 in a college basketball simulation kind of sucks, especially when it’s used simply as a forced stratification to suck money and time from users. D3 was popular when D1 was unplayable. It’s an appendix at this point, honestly I don’t care if it stays or goes.

It's not true. We were 150 owners in D3 Naismith in 2.0. Competition was fierce, four conferences were great, one was exceptional. It worked cause it was competitive and winning meant something.

Posted by zorzii on 4/27/2018 8:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 9:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 6:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Everyone knows HD's new user retention rate sucks. D3 isn't fun. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why it isn't fun.

The new user retention rate has always sucked. The whole concept of having a D3 in a college basketball simulation kind of sucks, especially when it’s used simply as a forced stratification to suck money and time from users. D3 was popular when D1 was unplayable. It’s an appendix at this point, honestly I don’t care if it stays or goes.

It's not true. We were 150 owners in D3 Naismith in 2.0. Competition was fierce, four conferences were great, one was exceptional. It worked cause it was competitive and winning meant something.

That’s not new player retention, that’s a whole bunch of people parked in D3. There’s a difference.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/27/2018 8:12:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 4/27/2018 8:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 9:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 6:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 4/26/2018 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/26/2018 3:58:00 PM (view original):
“You're really ignoring all of those "here are some examples for users the current structure was confusing for" mentions in favor of your own bias, huh?”

This specifically is not well thought out. As others have already noted, the problem is not that people can reach up - people generally like being able to reach up. The problem is that new players don’t know about it. Maybe there could be more help from a presentation standpoint, a tutorial mode, an email directing people to the forum or a mentor. Or maybe D3 could be made into a free-to-play sandbox. A number of different options addressing the *actual* problem exist, which don’t make the entire game worse through capping recruits by division.

"people generally like being able to reach up"

Evidence for this? Marketplace seems to hate it.

By marketplace, I assume you mean the handful of people who have made it a pet issue. Reaching up has been a part of the game for a long time. I’ve only seen it become an issue for people with 3.0, when it became harder to pinpoint who you had to worry about and what challenges you could ignore.

Everyone knows HD's new user retention rate sucks. D3 isn't fun. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why it isn't fun.

The new user retention rate has always sucked. The whole concept of having a D3 in a college basketball simulation kind of sucks, especially when it’s used simply as a forced stratification to suck money and time from users. D3 was popular when D1 was unplayable. It’s an appendix at this point, honestly I don’t care if it stays or goes.

It's not true. We were 150 owners in D3 Naismith in 2.0. Competition was fierce, four conferences were great, one was exceptional. It worked cause it was competitive and winning meant something.

That’s not new player retention, that’s a whole bunch of people parked in D3. There’s a difference.

Some moves up, others arrived, Naismith altogether was healthy 100+ each division.

People parked in D2 and D3 because D1 was terrible. I’m not interested in making D1 worse so more people spend longer at D3.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/27/2018 8:37:00 AM (view original):
People parked in D2 and D3 because D1 was terrible. I’m not interested in making D1 worse so more people spend longer at D3.

D1 was not terrible, it was healthy. People were not parking... D1 at 3.0 is better. We all agree it makes for better compétition, does not mean we cannot improve D2 and D3.