Posted by bhansalid00 on 6/15/2018 3:21:00 AM (view original):
To the OP's point, I don't think you get the full value of a 4-out offense in HD that you get in real life.
In real life, perhaps the biggest benefit of your PF being outside the arc is extra space opening up for penetration. There isn't really a similar concept of spacing in HD - your offensive performance is just a product of your ratings / IQ, your opponent's ratings / IQ, and both teams' game plans.
Having a 4th guy who can shoot from outside might convince your opponent to go slightly more +, but if you're already that perimeter-focused, it probably won't make much of a difference. There's diminishing returns on having yet another 3PT shooter.

Yeah, it’s an approximation, it’s not a replication.

Having 4 perimeter scorers in the starting lineup - or at least 4 guys capable of perimeter scoring - isn’t fundamentally different from having 4 paint scorers in the starting lineup, or a mix of 4 paint and perimeter scorers, at least in terms redundancy and diminishing returns. Some folks have found their offense is more efficient with 4 or 5 scorers and more even distribution, especially with motion and fast break. I suspect the system may penalize overuse in some sets more than others, but that’s probably the extent to which the system cares about how many scorers you have. The big benefit to having more scorers, rather than fewer, is that a defense is less able to key in on a guy or an area. It makes your offense more flexible, and gives you more options. You can attack certain spots of a defense without moving guys around.

As with any strategy, there are things you give up if you pursue it all the way.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/15/2018 10:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bhansalid00 on 6/15/2018 3:21:00 AM (view original):
To the OP's point, I don't think you get the full value of a 4-out offense in HD that you get in real life.
In real life, perhaps the biggest benefit of your PF being outside the arc is extra space opening up for penetration. There isn't really a similar concept of spacing in HD - your offensive performance is just a product of your ratings / IQ, your opponent's ratings / IQ, and both teams' game plans.
Having a 4th guy who can shoot from outside might convince your opponent to go slightly more +, but if you're already that perimeter-focused, it probably won't make much of a difference. There's diminishing returns on having yet another 3PT shooter.

Yeah, it’s an approximation, it’s not a replication.

Having 4 perimeter scorers in the starting lineup - or at least 4 guys capable of perimeter scoring - isn’t fundamentally different from having 4 paint scorers in the starting lineup, or a mix of 4 paint and perimeter scorers, at least in terms redundancy and diminishing returns. Some folks have found their offense is more efficient with 4 or 5 scorers and more even distribution, especially with motion and fast break. I suspect the system may penalize overuse in some sets more than others, but that’s probably the extent to which the system cares about how many scorers you have. The big benefit to having more scorers, rather than fewer, is that a defense is less able to key in on a guy or an area. It makes your offense more flexible, and gives you more options. You can attack certain spots of a defense without moving guys around.

As with any strategy, there are things you give up if you pursue it all the way.

No, I think having a 4th perimeter scorer IS fundamentally different in HD than having 2 perimeter and 2 paint scorers. When a team adds a 4th perimeter scorer, most opponents are still going to use the same option as with 3 strong perimeter scorers - go +3 or +4. Diversity of scoring (a mix of perimeter + paint) is harder to neutralize in HD. But in real life, adding a credible 3PT shooter at the PF position is almost always a boon to your offense, because it creates better spacing. A RL coach can't say "let's just go even more + on these guys", because they're usually making defensive decisions on an individual basis (cover this guy closely at the 3PT line, help off this other guy).

That's why I think HD undervalues perimeter skills compared to RL. And it probably slightly overvalues paint skills because it doesn't apply a negative factor on floor spacing.

Posted by bhansalid00 on 6/15/2018 12:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/15/2018 10:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bhansalid00 on 6/15/2018 3:21:00 AM (view original):
To the OP's point, I don't think you get the full value of a 4-out offense in HD that you get in real life.
In real life, perhaps the biggest benefit of your PF being outside the arc is extra space opening up for penetration. There isn't really a similar concept of spacing in HD - your offensive performance is just a product of your ratings / IQ, your opponent's ratings / IQ, and both teams' game plans.
Having a 4th guy who can shoot from outside might convince your opponent to go slightly more +, but if you're already that perimeter-focused, it probably won't make much of a difference. There's diminishing returns on having yet another 3PT shooter.

Yeah, it’s an approximation, it’s not a replication.

Having 4 perimeter scorers in the starting lineup - or at least 4 guys capable of perimeter scoring - isn’t fundamentally different from having 4 paint scorers in the starting lineup, or a mix of 4 paint and perimeter scorers, at least in terms redundancy and diminishing returns. Some folks have found their offense is more efficient with 4 or 5 scorers and more even distribution, especially with motion and fast break. I suspect the system may penalize overuse in some sets more than others, but that’s probably the extent to which the system cares about how many scorers you have. The big benefit to having more scorers, rather than fewer, is that a defense is less able to key in on a guy or an area. It makes your offense more flexible, and gives you more options. You can attack certain spots of a defense without moving guys around.

As with any strategy, there are things you give up if you pursue it all the way.

No, I think having a 4th perimeter scorer IS fundamentally different in HD than having 2 perimeter and 2 paint scorers. When a team adds a 4th perimeter scorer, most opponents are still going to use the same option as with 3 strong perimeter scorers - go +3 or +4. Diversity of scoring (a mix of perimeter + paint) is harder to neutralize in HD. But in real life, adding a credible 3PT shooter at the PF position is almost always a boon to your offense, because it creates better spacing. A RL coach can't say "let's just go even more + on these guys", because they're usually making defensive decisions on an individual basis (cover this guy closely at the 3PT line, help off this other guy).

That's why I think HD undervalues perimeter skills compared to RL. And it probably slightly overvalues paint skills because it doesn't apply a negative factor on floor spacing.

I don’t dispute that there is a difference in how opponents game plan, which can have an effect on efficiency; that’s why I qualified with “in terms of redundancy and diminishing returns”. I’m just saying the system isn’t biasing itself against perimeter scoring - it’s a function of how people are choosing to use the system. Diminishing returns, to me, suggests there is a built in inefficiency to having too many or too focalized scoring options. I would dispute that claim.

Posted by topdogggbm on 6/14/2018 2:38:00 PM (view original):
I can agree with that 100%. Maybe i should've said "no order" instead. Because all i meant was that i want all of the above.

I've always related high ATH guards with good BH as well, as great guards for penetrating to the basket. Do you feel thats a reasonable assessment? Or no?

I think no. I think you're overthinking. This piggybacks off the floor spacing discussion that's been going on with regards to the OP's question. Basically: spacing doesn't exist. So yes, a guy with good BH and Pass will be better at penetrating to the basket, which will make him a better interior scorer. No doubt about that. The problem is that you seem to think that, because it tends to happen in RL, that guy penetrating to the basket is going to collapse the defense and give you an open shooter, making your perimeter guys play up. I have never seen any evidence that such a mechanism exists in this game. Basically, you're better off thinking about scoring and distributing as totally separate aspects of what your PG is doing. And for distributing, passing and IQ are by far and away the driving forces.