Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/15/2018 8:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/14/2018 5:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 4:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/14/2018 3:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 2:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 8/14/2018 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 2:02:00 PM (view original):
Also BL isn't a typical liberal. If you want to bunch wylie and I up as leftists then fine. That's equivalent to calling Trump a racist. Downplays actual crazies.

wylie is more moderate than you two. Remember our men in women's locker room debate.

This is true. Wylie is moderate. I am a liberal. BL is a leftist.

No. You call yourself a social democrat. That is not a liberal. That is a Leftist.

That's not necessarily true.

Yes, Sir, it is. Liberalism and Social Democracy are not interchangeable terms. I'm not feeling very well at the moment or I would highlight the ways they diverge.

I don't see you doing any harm by claiming to be both. The time is coming soon enough when the internal power struggle between the liberals and the social democrats for control of the Democratic Party will come to a head. For the moment, these two disparate groups are still maintaining a tenuous alliance.

OK, hold on, hold on. I was talking on the political spectrum of left/right. In terms of ideology, I am not a liberal. I am further right than BL.

tang, on the political spectrum, social democrats are FAR left. If you want to claim you are to the right of b_l, OK. Purely on the political spectrum (not focussing on what they did,) Stalin was to the right of Trotsky. Whoopie! They were both FAR left.

That isn't necessarily true. Yes, Democratic Socialists are, but not Soc Dems.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/15/2018 10:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/15/2018 9:30:00 AM (view original):
You can’t really apply straight left/right labels to totalitarians. Technically Hitler was right wing, Stalin left wing, but, in practice, they were dictators. Their goal was complete control and obedience from the people.

I doubt you’d find anyone on the left or right today (absent some truly insane MAGA heads) that believes the President should have complete control with no accountability.

I hear what you are saying. My Stalin/Trotsky usage was for dramatic effect to make the point.

The only way to fully implement any Far left or Far right ideology is through totalitarianism. Communism, in theory, is benign utopia. So is Social Democracy. In practice, it could only be successfully implemented in a country steeped in individualist tradition through sheer force. A social democratic USA would be a totalitarian USA....just as an ultra-Nationalist USA would be a totalitarian USA.

That's why you guys on both extremes frighten me somewhat. It's like you all don't know (or don't care) that the policies you espouse would ultimately lead to a reign of terror.

Is Sweden a dictatorship? Is Denmark? Finland?

We already had this discussion. Does social democracy work in other places? Yes. Would it work in the USA? Maybe.

More examples of BL being further left than I am. I agree with his ideals somewhat, but we disagree on execution.

BTW, general reminder to all that Social Democracy isn't Marxism nor is it socialism. It is capitalism.

Another general reminder that George Orwell was a social democrat.

OK carry on.

Posted by tangplay on 8/15/2018 1:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/15/2018 8:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/14/2018 5:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 4:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/14/2018 3:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 2:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 8/14/2018 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/14/2018 2:02:00 PM (view original):
Also BL isn't a typical liberal. If you want to bunch wylie and I up as leftists then fine. That's equivalent to calling Trump a racist. Downplays actual crazies.

wylie is more moderate than you two. Remember our men in women's locker room debate.

This is true. Wylie is moderate. I am a liberal. BL is a leftist.

No. You call yourself a social democrat. That is not a liberal. That is a Leftist.

That's not necessarily true.

Yes, Sir, it is. Liberalism and Social Democracy are not interchangeable terms. I'm not feeling very well at the moment or I would highlight the ways they diverge.

I don't see you doing any harm by claiming to be both. The time is coming soon enough when the internal power struggle between the liberals and the social democrats for control of the Democratic Party will come to a head. For the moment, these two disparate groups are still maintaining a tenuous alliance.

OK, hold on, hold on. I was talking on the political spectrum of left/right. In terms of ideology, I am not a liberal. I am further right than BL.

tang, on the political spectrum, social democrats are FAR left. If you want to claim you are to the right of b_l, OK. Purely on the political spectrum (not focussing on what they did,) Stalin was to the right of Trotsky. Whoopie! They were both FAR left.

That isn't necessarily true. Yes, Democratic Socialists are, but not Soc Dems.

There are major differences between Dem Socs and Soc Dems. If we actually had a Dem Soc here, you would know that.

I can't see todd's pictures.

Posted by tangplay on 8/15/2018 1:31:00 PM (view original):
There are major differences between Dem Socs and Soc Dems. If we actually had a Dem Soc here, you would know that.

tang, "The Left" and "The Right" goes far beyond economics. You throw out the word capitalism as if it is a magic elixir protecting you from being far left. Are there differences between social democrats, democratic socialists, Marxists, etc? Yes. Are they all far Left? Yes. If you can't or won't see it, God bless you.

Do you think I am far left? If you do then many, many more people are far left.

Posted by tangplay on 8/15/2018 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Do you think I am far left? If you do then many, many more people are far left.

Yes, and there is nothing wrong with it. Social democrats are firmly within the umbrella of Socialism. Be proud of what you believe in. Stand up for it and defend it but don't run away from it just to appear more palatable to the masses or more moderate. I am a Classic Liberal..always have been and always will be. If a lot of people believe what I believe, great. If I am the only one in the entire world, also great. In the end, I don't give a damn how many others stand with me as long as I am true to myself.

you said it, gomiami..gotta stand for what you believe in whether anyone else stands with you or not.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/15/2018 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/15/2018 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Do you think I am far left? If you do then many, many more people are far left.

Yes, and there is nothing wrong with it. Social democrats are firmly within the umbrella of Socialism. Be proud of what you believe in. Stand up for it and defend it but don't run away from it just to appear more palatable to the masses or more moderate. I am a Classic Liberal..always have been and always will be. If a lot of people believe what I believe, great. If I am the only one in the entire world, also great. In the end, I don't give a damn how many others stand with me as long as I am true to myself.

Here is the Wikipedia definition for Social Democracy:

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justicewithin the framework of a liberal democratic polity and capitalist economy.

And Democratic Socialism:

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production^[1] with an emphasis on self-management and democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist, participatory or decentralized planned economy.^[2]

With that said, the definitions of far left, far right, etc. are different among everyone. I clearly have a different opinion than you do. In the end, those terms aren't all that meaningful anyway as you stated. I don't think people should use far left and far right as an insult. As we see here, many disagree with me.

Tang if AOC said she wanted to nationalize hospitals and pharma companies. How would you feel about that?

I would feel that she isn't president and is too young to run so that isn't really an issue.

I would also feel that I would need to research more and see studies from multiple people to find out if that is a good idea.

Posted by tangplay on 8/15/2018 6:31:00 PM (view original):
I would feel that she isn't president and is too young to run so that isn't really an issue.

I would also feel that I would need to research more and see studies from multiple people to find out if that is a good idea.

Do you think it is a good idea to nationalize any industry?

I won't rule it out.