CC Sabathia a HOFer? Topic

Love that one. Revere has a couple that are Top 5 worthy. So does Mike Trout. Edmonds has that amazing diving catch, which is probably #1, Jones has the one I showed, and of course Willie Mays has The Catch (which isn't all that acrobatic but it's in the WS and nobody had ever seen a basket catch running at full speed with your back to the plate).
5/31/2019 4:39 PM
We finally got Edgar in.

Before that it was Bagwell and Raines.

Now it’s time for another player that REALLY bothers me is not in the Hall.

Larry Walker:

3x Batting Title
7x Gold Glove
Won an MVP
30/30 Club
230 SB
Five 100 RBI Seasons


.300 AVG / .400 OBP / 200 SB / 350 HR
(Only Player in MLB History)

Compared to Griffey (another slugging OF with great defense (and injury problems) in the same era)

Griffey: .284/ .370/ .538

Walker: .313/ .400/ .565

Griffey: 136 OPS+

Walker: 141 OPS+

Griffey: .860 Road OPS

Walker: .865 Road OPS

Yes I know Griffey had way more ABs, but one set the record for most votes ever, and the other barely got 50% of the votes.

Oh yeah, one last thing on Walker

HE WAS STEROID-FREE!
5/31/2019 5:44 PM
Posted by d_rock97 on 5/31/2019 5:46:00 PM (view original):
We finally got Edgar in.

Before that it was Bagwell and Raines.

Now it’s time for another player that REALLY bothers me is not in the Hall.

Larry Walker:

3x Batting Title
7x Gold Glove
Won an MVP
30/30 Club
230 SB
Five 100 RBI Seasons


.300 AVG / .400 OBP / 200 SB / 350 HR
(Only Player in MLB History)

Compared to Griffey (another slugging OF with great defense (and injury problems) in the same era)

Griffey: .284/ .370/ .538

Walker: .313/ .400/ .565

Griffey: 136 OPS+

Walker: 141 OPS+

Griffey: .860 Road OPS

Walker: .865 Road OPS

Yes I know Griffey had way more ABs, but one set the record for most votes ever, and the other barely got 50% of the votes.

Oh yeah, one last thing on Walker

HE WAS STEROID-FREE!
I really think Walker will get elected next year. Players on their last year on the ballot always get a huge boost and he jumped 20% last year. The backlog has been plundered. Jeter is the only 1st ballot lock so plenty of room for 10 votes!
5/31/2019 6:25 PM
Walker also played half his games in Coors Field. His numbers away from Coors Field were nice, but nothing fantastic.
Home - 3429 ABs 215 HR .348/.431/.637 1.068 OPS
Away - 3478 ABs 168 HR .278/.370/.495 .865 OPS

Nice numbers away from home but not HoF worthy in my opinion.
And, not that I am saying walker used steroids, but just because we never heard anything about it, doesn't mean he was clean. Doesn't mean he wasn't either, but for you to say he was steroid free is misleading. He was steroid free as far as we know. He certainly played during the right era for steroids.
5/31/2019 6:30 PM
No, he’s not Todd Helton, he did not played half his games at Coors.

He also played well in Montreal and St Louis.

In fact he played 597 of his 1988 career games in Coors, or about 30%. Less than a third!

In those 597 games he batted .381 / .462 / .710

But if people wanna use the Coors thing against him in hitting, they also gotta give him the Coors advantage fielding too cuz that ballpark has the biggest outfield in the bigs. More field to cover. He was a complete player. He had the speed and arm to play RF in Coors, which is no small feat by any means.

There’s a huge difference in playing RF at Coors vs playing RF at say, Minute Maid.

So he didn’t just have good numbers at Coors, he had video games numbers there. He also was an amazing defender at Coors. Played less than a third of his career games there. And had numbers better than Griffey (who set a record for amount of votes).
5/31/2019 7:14 PM (edited)
Walker should be in. Solid counting numbers, MVP, 3-time batting champion, good WAR, 7 Gold Gloves (whatever that means). The Coors rap hurts him but, as d_rock said, only 31% of his games were played at Coors. Only 4 seasons w/ 140+ games also hurts him a little. Crowded HOF field the last few years really thins out in `20. The trend is his friend.
5/31/2019 7:23 PM
Posted by thunder1008 on 5/31/2019 7:23:00 PM (view original):
Walker should be in. Solid counting numbers, MVP, 3-time batting champion, good WAR, 7 Gold Gloves (whatever that means). The Coors rap hurts him but, as d_rock said, only 31% of his games were played at Coors. Only 4 seasons w/ 140+ games also hurts him a little. Crowded HOF field the last few years really thins out in `20. The trend is his friend.
I didn't realize Walker played that few percentage of games at Coors Field. I'm really tired of the bias against Rockies hitters. They're treated like steroid users!
6/1/2019 1:38 AM

But if people wanna use the Coors thing against him in hitting, they also gotta give him the Coors advantage fielding too cuz that ballpark has the biggest outfield in the bigs. More field to cover. He was a complete player. He had the speed and arm to play RF in Coors, which is no small feat by any means.


This is why the next 3 guys the Rockies got to play RF after Walker were Jeromy Burnitz, Brad Hawpe, and Seth Smith?
6/1/2019 10:38 AM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/1/2019 10:38:00 AM (view original):

But if people wanna use the Coors thing against him in hitting, they also gotta give him the Coors advantage fielding too cuz that ballpark has the biggest outfield in the bigs. More field to cover. He was a complete player. He had the speed and arm to play RF in Coors, which is no small feat by any means.


This is why the next 3 guys the Rockies got to play RF after Walker were Jeromy Burnitz, Brad Hawpe, and Seth Smith?
Is there a point you’re tryna make?
6/1/2019 2:50 PM
Yeah. It's clearly meaningless to say it's "no small feat" to play RF in Coors. The next 3 guys who played RF in Coors were all defensively incompetent. RF in Coors is still RF. Means a lot less than CF in LA.
6/1/2019 3:31 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/1/2019 3:31:00 PM (view original):
Yeah. It's clearly meaningless to say it's "no small feat" to play RF in Coors. The next 3 guys who played RF in Coors were all defensively incompetent. RF in Coors is still RF. Means a lot less than CF in LA.
Guess what. Teams play defensive liabilities.

The first few Astros CFers at Minute Maid, which had the deepest CF in baseball at the time, were Richard Hidalgo, Lance Berkman, and a 37 yr old Craig Biggio.

Clearly centerfield isn’t an important position if the Astros are willing to put two big, slow dudes, and a 37 yr old, to play the deepest centerfield in baseball.







Or...

the bigger field exaggerates how bad a defensive liability liability can get.

Represented by when Brad Hawpe, from 2007-2009 had a -8 dWar. He also cost his team 57 runs!

Over the course of Burnitz 14 year career, Burnitz cost his team 27 runs. 15 of those came from his one year with the Rockies.

Carlos Gonzalez was one of the better defensive rightfielders in baseball during his prime. He had the speed to efficiently steal 20 bases a year. He also had one of the better arms in the game. He even won 2 Gold Gloves. But even he was just about average, accounting for a total of 3 DRS in his time as a Rockies RF.

Which makes Larry Walker’s defensive prowess more outstanding. We didn’t have DRS until 2003 by the looks of FanGraphs, but in their first year, Walker saved his team 10 runs. His Total Zone (the pre-cursor to DRS) was +28 from 1996-2001. We don’t have TZ or DRS from 2002 in FanGraphs, but his UZR that year was 3.4

My point is Coors Field amplified his defensive ability in RF with the bigger outfield than say, a softball park like Camden Yards or Yankee Stadium would.
6/1/2019 4:10 PM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
K-Rod was NOT better than Sutter. Different ERA..Sutter earned those saves and pitched 2-4 innings. KRod in todays game for 1 inning....getting 400 saves today vs. early 90s is totally different.
Beltre is IN.
Yadi Molina should be
CC should not be but Yanks attention may get him there.
Votto NO.
Beltran...I dont think so...Edmonds / Him right on bubble
Grienke no.
Larry Walker...maybe.
7/18/2019 6:50 PM
1 2 3 4
POS PLAYER POS PLAYER POS PLAYER POS PLAYER
P1 Walter Johnson P1 Kid Nichols P1 Christy Mathewson P1 Randy Johnson
P2 Cy Young P2 Pete Alexander P2 Tom Seaver P2 John Clarkson
P3 Roger Clemens P3 Lefty Grove P3 Greg Maddux P3 Tim Keefe
C Johnny Bench C Gary Carter C Ivan Rodriguez C Carlton Fisk
1B Lou Gehrig 1B Albert Pujols 1B Jimmie Foxx 1B Cap Anson
2B Rogers Hornsby 2B Eddie Collins 2B Nap Lojoie 2B Joe Morgan
3B Mike Schmidt 3B Eddie Matthews 3B Wade Boggs 3B Adrian Beltre
SS Honus Wagner SS Alex Rodriguez SS Cal Ripken Jr SS George Davis
LF Barry Bonds LF Ted Williams LF Rickey Henderson LF Carl Yastrzrmski
CF Willie Mays CF Ty Cobb CF Tris Speaker CF Mickey Mantle
RF Babe Ruth RF Hank Aaron RF Stan Musial RF Mel Ott
5 6 7 8
POS PLAYER POS PLAYER POS PLAYER POS PLAYER
P1 Warren Spahn P1 Jim McCormick P1 Old Hoss Radbourne P1 Eddie Plank
P2 Bob Gibson P2 Bert Blyleven P2 Gaylord Perry P2 Robin Roberts
P3 Phil Niekro P3 Steve Carlton P3 Pedro Martinez P3 Fergie Jenkins
C Mike Piazza C Yogi Berra C Bill Dickey C Joe Mauer
1B Rogor Connor 1B Jeff Bagwell 1B Dan Brouthers 1B Johnny Mize
2B Charlie Gehringer 2B Rod Carew 2B Robinson Cano 2B Bobby Grich
3B George Brett 3B Chipper Jones 3B Ron Santo 3B Brooks Robinson
SS Robin Yount SS Arky Vaughan SS Ernie Banks SS Ozzie Smith
LF Pete Rose LF Ed Delahanty LF Al Simmons LF Tim Raines
CF Ken Griffey Jr CF Mike Trout CF Joe Dimaggio CF Duke Snider
RF Frank Robinson RF Roberto Clemente RF Al Kaline RF Reggie Jackson
9 10 11 12
POS PLAYER POS PLAYER POS PLAYER POS PLAYER
P1 Pud Galvin P1 Ed Walsh P1 Nolan Ryan P1 Al Spalding
P2 Amos Rusie P2 Mike Mussina P2 Tommy Bond P2 Zack Greinke
P3 Curt Schilling P3 Tom Glavine P3 Charlie Buffinton P3 Mickey Welch
C Gabby Hartnett C Ted Simmons C Mickey Cochrane C Thurman Munson
1B Frank Thomas 1B Miguel Cabrera 1B Jim Thome 1B Rafael Palmeiro
2B Rynde Sandberg 2B Frankie Frisch 2B Chase Utley 2B Jackie Robinson
3B Paulo Molitor 3B Scott Rolen 3B Edgar Martinez 3B Graig Nettles
SS Luke Appling SS Bill Dahlen SS Alan Trammel SS Derek Jeter
LF Goose Goslin LF Manny Ramirez LF Billy Williams LF Fred Clarke
CF Carlos Beltran CF Kenny Lofton CF Andruw Jones CF Richie Ashburn
RF Harry Heilmann RF Larry Walker RF Paul Waner RF Sam Crawford
7/18/2019 6:58 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/1/2019 3:31:00 PM (view original):
Yeah. It's clearly meaningless to say it's "no small feat" to play RF in Coors. The next 3 guys who played RF in Coors were all defensively incompetent. RF in Coors is still RF. Means a lot less than CF in LA.
I realize you love to argue, but you'd think such a "skilled debater" could keep his arguments relevant.

Just because the Rockies got stuck putting a bunch of weak fielders in RF after Walker left, how does that refute that Walker played RF at Coors well? Playing LF in Fenway presents very unique challenges, but the Red Sox had Manny out there for years. Does Manny being awful negate the fact that LF at Fenway presents unique challenges? No, it doesn't.

Nice try though.
7/22/2019 1:11 PM
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