Posted by Jtpsops on 5/28/2019 5:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2019 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/28/2019 2:02:00 PM (view original):
I never really commented on CC. I think whether he gets in is yet to be determined, which is sort of an odd thing at his age, but he's probably that borderline.

As of right now, if he keeps pitching decently this year and finishes with a season that looks kinda like the past 2, he's going to be almost identical, statistically, to Glavine at the same point in his career. Glavine finished with a few more average to slightly-above-average seasons, pitched until he was 42, and managed to crack 300 wins. Sabathia is no longer dependent on velocity, so he has a chance to do the same. If he does, he gets in. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't.

Glavine > Sabathia by a much larger margin than one final above average season.

Glavine was not all that great. If he didn't get 300 wins, and didn't have all the exposure of playing with Maddux and Smoltz in that rotation, I think he'd have gotten far less support.

Glavine: Five 20-win seasons. Six top 3 CYA seasons, including 2 wins. Over 300 career wins. All far better than Sabathia. The only thing that Sabathia has a noticeable margin in is K's, because he was a power pitcher in his prime.

Glavine was pretty good. "Not all that great" falls into the dumbass category.

I made no comment on Sabathia. Personally, I don't think Sabathia is a HOFer.

And you just contradicted yourself. "Glavine was pretty good." Since when does "pretty good" = "great"? That doesn't really refute my statement.

Glavine was good. But he wasn't great. I think he was a borderline HOFer at best, not the slam dunk some people act like he was. The 300 wins helped him a lot. His ERA+ is 148th all time, behind plenty of guys I'm sure you'd agree are not HOF pitchers.

Future Hall of Famers

Slam dunks -- Jeter, Ichiro, Pujols, Beltran, Beltre, Cabrera, Kershaw, Trout, Verlander, Utley

Likely -- Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Larry Walker, K-Rod, Ortiz, Mauer

Maybe -- A-Rod, Rollins, Votto, Torii Hunter, Billy Wagner, Minnie Minoso, Dick Allen, Cano, Molina

Distant Horizon -- Sale, Stanton, Harper, Bumgarner, Machada, Altuve, Freeman, Scherzer

I love CC but, as someone said earlier in this thread, he's Hall of Very Good, not Hall of Fame. Low end maybe, more like unlikely. And in 2027, after the baseball biopic Hustle earns five Oscar nominations, Pete Rose rides a groundswell of popular support into the HOF. I mean, c'mon -- 4,256.

My 0.02...

You think Utley is a slam dunk?!?

Posted by thunder1008 on 5/29/2019 10:37:00 PM (view original):
Future Hall of Famers

Slam dunks -- Jeter, Ichiro, Pujols, Beltran, Beltre, Cabrera, Kershaw, Trout, Verlander, Utley

Likely -- Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Larry Walker, K-Rod, Ortiz, Mauer

Maybe -- A-Rod, Rollins, Votto, Torii Hunter, Billy Wagner, Minnie Minoso, Dick Allen, Cano, Molina

Distant Horizon -- Sale, Stanton, Harper, Bumgarner, Machada, Altuve, Freeman, Scherzer

I love CC but, as someone said earlier in this thread, he's Hall of Very Good, not Hall of Fame. Low end maybe, more like unlikely. And in 2027, after the baseball biopic Hustle earns five Oscar nominations, Pete Rose rides a groundswell of popular support into the HOF. I mean, c'mon -- 4,256.

My 0.02...

Scherzer is a slam dunk!

Wagner and K-Rod should trade places, IMO.

No way on Torii Hunter and Jimmy Rollins. Holliday should've been 2007 NL MVP!

Jeter will get 100%. Back to back unanimous Yankees!

Posted by Got_Worms on 5/29/2019 10:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by thunder1008 on 5/29/2019 10:37:00 PM (view original):
Future Hall of Famers

Slam dunks -- Jeter, Ichiro, Pujols, Beltran, Beltre, Cabrera, Kershaw, Trout, Verlander, Utley

Likely -- Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Larry Walker, K-Rod, Ortiz, Mauer

Maybe -- A-Rod, Rollins, Votto, Torii Hunter, Billy Wagner, Minnie Minoso, Dick Allen, Cano, Molina

Distant Horizon -- Sale, Stanton, Harper, Bumgarner, Machada, Altuve, Freeman, Scherzer

I love CC but, as someone said earlier in this thread, he's Hall of Very Good, not Hall of Fame. Low end maybe, more like unlikely. And in 2027, after the baseball biopic Hustle earns five Oscar nominations, Pete Rose rides a groundswell of popular support into the HOF. I mean, c'mon -- 4,256.

My 0.02...

Scherzer is a slam dunk!

Wagner and K-Rod should trade places, IMO.

No way on Torii Hunter and Jimmy Rollins. Holliday should've been 2007 NL MVP!

Good thoughts, Got_Worms. Funny that you mention Wagner and K-Rod trading places since I flip flopped them 3 or 4 times on my list. You could definitely make a case for Wagner being the more talented, accomplished and deserving closer, and K-Rod's off-field issues will hurt him w/ some voters. Probably a moot point since I think both will get in. Though Rivera towers head and shoulders above his competitors, his unanimous selection gives cred to the closer role and paves the way for more relievers to follow him.

I also flip-flopped Utley between slam dunk and likely, but he'll get in. Lousy counting numbers, but he gets in on great JAWS, World Series heroics, nine postseason appearances and team leadership. Arguably the best player at his position during his career, and Cano has a PED problem.

Kershaw & Trout have already accomplished enough to be virtual locks and, though I wouldn't put Scherzer in that same category, he's certainly leading the charge for the next group of candidates.

Ridiculous that neither Larry Walker nor Minnie Minoso is in and Harold Baines, the poster boy for Hall of Very Good, is. Probably one of the Hall's least deserving selections since Candy Cummings, the alleged "inventor" of the curveball.

Posted by Got_Worms on 5/29/2019 10:56:00 PM (view original):
Jeter will get 100%. Back to back unanimous Yankees!

Hope you're right but the dWAR numbers wonks may have gotten into enough voters' heads to deprive him of his rightful due. Same thinking that gives Torii Hunter an outside shot and makes the defensively talented but otherwise undeserving Yadier Molina a genuine consideration. But Jeter will be in the high 90's for sure.

Love a good Cooperstown debate and I appreciate your insight. I can talk baseball HOF all day!

Utley will certainly be an interesting case. I would rather see a player with a short dominate peak like Don Mattingly, for example, instead of what I like to refer to as mediocre longevity i.e., Harold Baines.

What we're going to see from Veteran's Committee's moving forward is rewarding players that have no steroid ties like Dick Allen, Garvey, Dale Murphy, just to name a few.

All three of these players, plus Mattingly, should be on the VC ballot in December. Suppose we'll see Dave Parker, Dave Concepcion, Tommy John, Kaat, and some other retreads as well. I predict Thurman Munson gets elected!

Modern Baseball (1970-1987): December of 2019 for inclusion in the Class of 2020
Golden Days (1950-1969): December of 2020 for inclusion in the Class of 2021 - Bill Freehan, Minoso, and Elston Howard should get strong consideration on this ballot. Roger Maris will likely be on this ballot too.
Early Baseball (pre-1950): December of 2020 for inclusion in the Class of 2021
Today's Game: December of 2021 for inclusion in the Class of 2022
Modern Baseball: December of 2022 for inclusion in the Class of 2023
Today's Game: December of 2023 for inclusion in the Class of 2024
Modern Baseball: December of 2024 for inclusion in the Class of 2025
Golden Days: December of 2025 for inclusion in the Class of 2026

At this point I'd like to see several players elected each year so we can stop discussing their candidacy!

The real issue I have with Baines election is he was the 6th best player on a 6 player ballot. If Will Clark or Albert Belle got elected people would not be up in arms!

I agree that dominance trumps longevity. Koufax is the classic example, Kershaw another. All the more reason Utley should be voted in -- the best player at his position and one of the best players in baseball from 2005-2009. Couldn't agree more on Donnie Baseball. Nobody better from 1984-89, great leader, face of New York baseball. Parker and Will Clark, on the other hand, weren't dominant enough for long enough, though neither would be a travesty. Dale Murphy is a great example of clean living and an all around nice guy but not sure those are HOF qualifications.

The Hall of Pretty Good to sometimes Very Good

Pathetic.

Shut it down

Posted by thunder1008 on 5/30/2019 3:05:00 AM (view original):
I agree that dominance trumps longevity. Koufax is the classic example, Kershaw another. All the more reason Utley should be voted in -- the best player at his position and one of the best players in baseball from 2005-2009. Couldn't agree more on Donnie Baseball. Nobody better from 1984-89, great leader, face of New York baseball. Parker and Will Clark, on the other hand, weren't dominant enough for long enough, though neither would be a travesty. Dale Murphy is a great example of clean living and an all around nice guy but not sure those are HOF qualifications.

Looking at Baines career arc, I'm not sure he was clean. He had a resurgence late in his career with the Orioles and made the all-star team at 1999.

The Orioles were one of the most prominent franchises for Roiders!

I don't see Beltran or Verlander as locks either... In fact, I really don't think Beltran deserves to go in. If he does, it's basically entirely on the strength of his 2004 playoff performance. I must admit, I will likely never forget that 2004 Beltan vs. Pujols NLCS. Extremely exciting stuff. But at the end of the day, he wasn't a HOF caliber player. I'd take Jim Edmonds over him both offensively and defensively.