Posted by Got_Worms on 6/4/2019 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/4/2019 2:06:00 PM (view original):
To wit:
Carlos Delgado, Will Clark, Jack Clark, Mattingly, Norm Cash, Boog Powell, Cepeda, Keith Hernandez, Olerud, Jim Bottomley, Teixeira, Giambi, Adrian Gonzalez. Career-wise, none of those guys strongly stand out from the group. And that's way too many dudes to just throw in the Hall because they were very good players. The bar is high at first base.
Well Bottomley and Cepeda are in the HOF. Mattingly was generally regarded as one of the best players of the entire decade and his short peak is hall worthy. Clark was also a feared hitter and considered one of the top hitters in the NL at least. Had some good seasons with the Rangers as well. I think his low HR totals hurt him, much like Hernandez.
It's not particularly relevant from my perspective which individuals are in the HOF. I think it's generally understood that lowest common denominator selection criteria don't work; over time that only allows the bar to drop lower and lower. It's more reasonable to look at group characteristics of the larger set of 1B who are in the HOF and then develop some reasonable criteria based on that. My general principle is that you want an average of one guy per fielding position about every 7-8 years, on average. Obviously they will sometimes cluster a bit, and there will be some dips, but that's a pretty good baseline rate that results in a HOF with just about everybody's childhood baseball heroes represented, which I think is important, but keeps the bar high enough to make it feel important to get in.
Obviously at some point some groups of voters felt that Botttomley and Cepeda deserved to be in. That's fine. But that doesn't mean that anyone in that group I just named has to fit my general criteria for HOF-worthiness, and I don't think anybody from that group does. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion on Mattingly, but it's not a fact that "his short peak is hall worthy." Obviously people can disagree. I disagree. The voters obviously disagreed. My point is that if you think Mattingly's peak was worthy, then at least several of the guys on the list I just posted would probably have to be considered worthy as well. Giambi and Cash both had great peaks. Olerud had similarly great seasons, his were just spaced out more. All 3 had similar career numbers to Mattingly and Clark.
I just think if you put the line below these guys you have too many first basemen. My full list of 1B in the Hall, starting from scratch, would be:
Gehrig, Foxx, Mize, Brouthers, Connor, Anson, Greenberg, Musial, McCovey, Killebrew, Allen, Murray, Palmeiro, Bagwell, and Thomas, with spots waiting for Pujols and Cabrera. The guys on the line for discussion would be guys like Bill Terry, Sisler, and Chance. The whole cluster from my previous post is just out. This is reasonably consistent with the numbers of guys going in at other positions on the diamond.