New Salary Cap Progressive (Waitlist) Topic

Posted by robusk on 7/13/2019 1:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jcred5 on 7/11/2019 2:51:00 PM (view original):
I love progressives, I’m very happy Robusk is willing to run this and I'm super excited to try this. I do have a couple concerns and want to throw out a couple thoughts. First concern is that this will be HARD! Maybe not so much season 1 or even 2, but the further you go the harder it will be to build a good team that fits into that $6m window. I’m a little concerned with the tight cap there will be a need for a lot of trades, which are frequently one of the pain points and down falls of a progressive league. And in this case some trades will be for the purpose of reducing salary. So you may have team 1 trade a $7m player to team 2 for a $4m player to get under the cap. Generally all things being equal you would need something back to make it “even”. It can be done, but I think it will be hard and result in trades that “look a little different” and may appear unfair. Which leads to the trade noise I referred to. The alternative is the add/drop, which means at 12:01am or whatever someone who happens to be online gets first dibs at a good player.

You could consider increasing the cap a little. Maybe a $47m cap helps with some of the concerns. And you could put a waiver wire order in place for add/drop where the team with the worst record gets first dibs and so on. Not just the one who happens to be online.

No matter what I am in, especially if seapilots is in!

Robusk – if my theories are off let me know. Maybe I’m misunderstanding how you envision the league evolving. Historically success in progressives means two things 1) acquiring assets to build a great team and make a run and then 2) selling those assets off so you can get bad, higher picks and rebuild and maybe acquire players.
No man, I think your theories are right on. My vision is that it would be a little more like real life where like Russell Westbrook goes from stud to someone who have to unload for salary cap reasons. I think we are on the same plane. I think the tightness creates a real interesting league.

Unrelated but I was traveling all week and I am back. I am going to update the front page now.
I will say the 2 round draft / free agency thing is the only thing so far that I am wavering on. It may be administratively easier to have infinite round draft like every other prog.
7/13/2019 1:42 AM
how about the following ?
  • 4 round "normal draft" for first 6 players
    • round 1 - 2 -- single pick
    • rounds 3 - 4 -- two picks
  • 4 round "free for all"
    • 1 round per day
    • rounds 5 - 6 -- single pick
    • rounds 7- 8 -- two picks
    • first come first served
    • missed picks carry into the next day
    • time stamp wins
7/13/2019 1:54 PM
Posted by thohoops on 7/13/2019 1:54:00 PM (view original):
how about the following ?
  • 4 round "normal draft" for first 6 players
    • round 1 - 2 -- single pick
    • rounds 3 - 4 -- two picks
  • 4 round "free for all"
    • 1 round per day
    • rounds 5 - 6 -- single pick
    • rounds 7- 8 -- two picks
    • first come first served
    • missed picks carry into the next day
    • time stamp wins
That sounds fun but too complex to manage. I’d rather keep it simple.
7/13/2019 11:13 PM
I literally just saw this. I echo some of the concerns brought up by jcred (do we really need a cap floor if you reach the requisite minutes?), and the not being able to trade a future pick irks me more than a bit, but I love everything else about it and am willing to give it a shot. If I don't like it, I can always leave, but this should be refreshing from the current cycle of prog.
7/14/2019 5:32 PM
Posted by ashamael on 7/14/2019 5:32:00 PM (view original):
I literally just saw this. I echo some of the concerns brought up by jcred (do we really need a cap floor if you reach the requisite minutes?), and the not being able to trade a future pick irks me more than a bit, but I love everything else about it and am willing to give it a shot. If I don't like it, I can always leave, but this should be refreshing from the current cycle of prog.
I agree that the cap floor/minute floor can seem redundant. However, the reason I put it in was to prevent this example: team has 3-4 studs that all carry significant salary. Team decides it wants another stud. Team keeps current studs and then adds just enough players to get them to the cap floor. However, their studs are soaking up significant salary so they are super low on minutes, which will ensure they will have a terrible record and thus likelihood to finish high in the draft besides being rich in talent. The opposite can happen by loading up on crappy minutes. It is a double progressive so there is a lot of talent and I think this is my best strategy for avoiding abjectly terrible blatant tank teams.

The reasons I decided against trading future picks were as follows: sometimes experienced owners are able to manipulate new owners who may think their team will be better than it is an extract what turns out to be high value for a low return. By letting owners see their records after a certain number of games, it makes them more educated on training. I am trying to police a commonly abused situation. Second, given that all picks have significant more value, including low round picks, there is enough trade capital for current drafts. Finally, I think it will be a lot of fun, similar to the NBA trading deadline, to have this window after game 65 until the draft is complete to have a flurry of trades. My hope is well educated transaction mayhem.

I am going to remove the rule on 2 round only draft right now because I don't want to favor people who can be online at the exact second free agency opens up since everyone is likely to have a lot of open slots each year.
7/15/2019 1:43 PM (edited)
Posted by robusk on 7/13/2019 11:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by thohoops on 7/13/2019 1:54:00 PM (view original):
how about the following ?
  • 4 round "normal draft" for first 6 players
    • round 1 - 2 -- single pick
    • rounds 3 - 4 -- two picks
  • 4 round "free for all"
    • 1 round per day
    • rounds 5 - 6 -- single pick
    • rounds 7- 8 -- two picks
    • first come first served
    • missed picks carry into the next day
    • time stamp wins
That sounds fun but too complex to manage. I’d rather keep it simple.
2 round “free for all”

3 picks per day
7/15/2019 2:33 PM
Posted by robusk on 7/13/2019 1:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jcred5 on 7/11/2019 2:51:00 PM (view original):
I love progressives, I’m very happy Robusk is willing to run this and I'm super excited to try this. I do have a couple concerns and want to throw out a couple thoughts. First concern is that this will be HARD! Maybe not so much season 1 or even 2, but the further you go the harder it will be to build a good team that fits into that $6m window. I’m a little concerned with the tight cap there will be a need for a lot of trades, which are frequently one of the pain points and down falls of a progressive league. And in this case some trades will be for the purpose of reducing salary. So you may have team 1 trade a $7m player to team 2 for a $4m player to get under the cap. Generally all things being equal you would need something back to make it “even”. It can be done, but I think it will be hard and result in trades that “look a little different” and may appear unfair. Which leads to the trade noise I referred to. The alternative is the add/drop, which means at 12:01am or whatever someone who happens to be online gets first dibs at a good player.

You could consider increasing the cap a little. Maybe a $47m cap helps with some of the concerns. And you could put a waiver wire order in place for add/drop where the team with the worst record gets first dibs and so on. Not just the one who happens to be online.

No matter what I am in, especially if seapilots is in!

Robusk – if my theories are off let me know. Maybe I’m misunderstanding how you envision the league evolving. Historically success in progressives means two things 1) acquiring assets to build a great team and make a run and then 2) selling those assets off so you can get bad, higher picks and rebuild and maybe acquire players.
No man, I think your theories are right on. My vision is that it would be a little more like real life where like Russell Westbrook goes from stud to someone who have to unload for salary cap reasons. I think we are on the same plane. I think the tightness creates a real interesting league.

Unrelated but I was traveling all week and I am back. I am going to update the front page now.
Thinking more I’m convinced this could be good with the cap. Westbrook or other traditionally “sim poison “ players could now become a lot more valuable because the competition I think will be overall less and more value in a high minutes lower salary.
7/15/2019 8:57 PM
I'd love to join another progressive and I think in theory this sounds great, but that margin is too small for my blood. I know I spend a lot of time on here to some extent, but it's usually just checking in between work meetings. This would require more time than I'd be able to invest to put together the right players to fit in that small window. I'm not very good at that with no salary cap. It would require a lot of player movement one way (trade) or the other (release). While in an unlimited time vacuum that would be a fun challenge, it's not where I want to invest that much time.

If this gets going and you find that becomes a problem in reality and not just in my head, I'd be open to joining with something a little less rigid in the future.
7/15/2019 9:24 PM
Posted by slashtc on 7/15/2019 9:24:00 PM (view original):
I'd love to join another progressive and I think in theory this sounds great, but that margin is too small for my blood. I know I spend a lot of time on here to some extent, but it's usually just checking in between work meetings. This would require more time than I'd be able to invest to put together the right players to fit in that small window. I'm not very good at that with no salary cap. It would require a lot of player movement one way (trade) or the other (release). While in an unlimited time vacuum that would be a fun challenge, it's not where I want to invest that much time.

If this gets going and you find that becomes a problem in reality and not just in my head, I'd be open to joining with something a little less rigid in the future.
For what it’s worth, I pulled the numbers from other progressive teams. It’s pretty broad. The top end is on the high end for a single prog and the bottom number is really low for a double season prog. I think it is going to be a lot less cumbersome than people think. There will be a lot of cuts and the transaction windows are small... but there will be a ton of players to fill the spots and the cap will mostly prevent tanking and powerhouses.

I will put some contextual numbers together in a bit after I finish running something for work.
7/15/2019 9:38 PM (edited)
I hear what you're saying, but I have a roughly .400 team in a double era that is in the mid 60s for salary. Granted it has too many minutes, but 44 or whatever is pretty low. You can build good teams for that, but it's going to require a lot more time/research and what you can afford for what amount. That sounds absolutely fascinating with unlimited free time, but this is a hobby. The cuts and small windows don't mean less work in my mind, they mean more work crammed into a shorter time period and if you're not available for any of that, you're screwed.

Teams will still tank, they'll just have to pick more mediocre players with higher minutes so they hit the lower limit. Powerhouses will still be there, but it should help close the gap to some extent. I hope I'm wrong. Hopefully this gets off the ground and you can prove me wrong.
7/15/2019 9:50 PM (edited)
I filtered out every player who plays less that 820 minutes per season over the course of the seasons that we are using. Using only those players, there will an average if $83,470,459 / team available, 41,037 minutes / team available and 22 players / team available.

So I guess my point is, there are plenty of resources to make any team work.

Yes, there will still be teams trying to tank. But it will be a lot harder to do in this league, and teams will be a lot less incentivized to do so without the looming powerhouse teams rendering them ineffective.

As far as the time windows, we are still looking at a couple weeks of trading. Honestly, I kind of theorize it will do unexpected things to the time windows for trading since not a lot of action happens until the season ends in a normal league.
7/15/2019 11:02 PM
Anyway, I am not trying to talk anyone into anything. We are already 2/3s of the way to filling and it doesn't seem worthwhile to add anyone who isn't into it. I just wanted to add additional context via numbers because I just find that a better way for me to communicate.
7/15/2019 11:06 PM
Sign me up!
7/16/2019 1:40 AM
in
7/16/2019 3:02 PM
Almost there!
7/16/2019 3:24 PM
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New Salary Cap Progressive (Waitlist) Topic

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