Posted by amerk1180 on 7/17/2019 2:16:00 AM (view original):
As a big time lifelong Chicago Bulls fan, I have to respond. I will agree with you that Wilt was indeed the greatest NBA player of all time. His numbers can't be approached. Much of it had to do with the fact that no one had ever seen anyone his height who was that coordinated and athletic, but that wasn't his fault.

Jordan was probably the greatest WINNER the NBA has ever seen. Much like Wilt, he was a freak athlete, but it was his will to win that sets him apart. As a Bulls fan who was standing in front of the TV watching every game in those title runs, I can tell you that Jordan LED that team like no single player has ever led another NBA team. Jordan got the most out of his AND his teammates abilities, and, like Wilt, he could do whatever he wanted on a basketball court. Remember the year he had like 23 triple doubles out of his teams final 30 games after Doug Collins moved him tp ppint guard? Remember the year he told everyone he would be a better 3 point shooter, and he shot 38%?

Comparing Wilt and Jordan is kinda like comparing Peyton Manning and Joe Montana. I don't think the NBA has seen its Tom Brady yet. IF Lebron had won each finals he was ever in, he would be Brady but he hasn't.

That all being said, I looked at each season of Wilt and I still believe that $11 mill is an ok limit. Any season he had under that was not completely ridiculous as a #1 overall pick of this draft. Over 11, yes, but under 11 is not that outrageous. An advantage? Sure, but whoever gets the top pick in any of these drafts has an advantage of sorts. I also feel that in this decade league, the talent gap between 1 and 47 is greater, so yeah sure the top pick gets Wilt, but then their 2nd and 3rd picks are basically stiffs.

good stuff amerk -
I think its Wilt #1 - and your appraisal of his athletic skills and him being so much more than his peers physcially are both on target....
Jordan was great and i do agree that what he has in 'Aces' is his will to win...

what IF Jordan had been drafted by the CLippers back in the day.??.. sure he owuld have been great,
but would that orginization have put Jordan into a position to succeed like Jerry Krause adn Reinsdorf did (?) - no

Bill Russell was a winner - so too were Jabbar - Bird - Magic - Tim Duncan is often overlooked.. Kobe....
a lot of guys make their teams winners - but a ton of guys benefit from being with the right group...
Wilt is often much maligned by winning only a few titles... and some of that is on him... but not all of it...

If we are to have maximum salary, may we make it 11.6 million? I would like to use or play against 71-72 Kareem if given a chance.

Posted by maglor1 on 7/17/2019 3:58:00 PM (view original):
If we are to have maximum salary, may we make it 11.6 million? I would like to use or play against 71-72 Kareem if given a chance.

I think he would be outside parameters of this theme

If you would like to see some of the 50's & 60's drsfts with a $11.8m player salary cap...go to the theme leagues thread set it to "All" and there's one on page 10 and another on page14. You'll be less concerned about Wilt under $11.8m. The ABBA draft is harsh in this era. The Wilt team didnt' win ...until the '66/67' was allowed.

Btw...they had to change the width of the foul shot lane...cuz Mikan was swatting down foul shots.

Amerk...you missed coolmay on the sign-up list

Enjoy the early days of the NBA, sign me up please.

well... the greatest WINNER was Bill Russell. Russell won a NCAA Championship, an Olympic gold medal, and he's an 11x NBA Champion. He won at every level on every team he was ever on...he even won back to back high school state championships.

If there are spots left, I'll take 1...
BTW, Wilt had the greatest stats the NBA will probably ever see, but does that really make him the best player? The guy was built like Shaq in an era where most PFs were the size of current SGs. If you put Shaq in that same time period, I believe he would have bettered Wilt's stats. Wilt was afraid of having the ball in the crunch, Russell said that he didn't worry near as much about Wilt in the last minutes of a close game. He also laid out how he'd play subtle mind-games, because he knew if Wilt focused he could push him around. He knew how to make Wilt less effectual than he could have been. How were their head-to-head win/losses in the playoffs? Mentality is part of a player's talent, and Russell was miles ahead of Wilt.
Wilt was amazing, but, due to no fault of his own, he had a physical advantage which no one else has had to the same degree. I'm more impressed by Russell's 11 rings in 13 seasons, with many of those runs defeating Wilt's teams, and his will to win. I'm more impressed by MJ's killer instinct and will to win. Wilt had stats, but he was not a better overall player than Russell or MJ.
One other thing; most of us have heard the phrase, "empty stats." Meaning someone will get stats, even on bad teams. There are plenty of guys that put up really good stats, but we dismiss them because they weren't winning. Considering Wilt only won 2 rings, the 2nd of which he might not have been the best player on his team, it sure as hell seems like a lot of his numbers are empty.
Granted, most sports talk is subjective. If someone says Wilt was the best ever, it's not laughable, so more power to them. The people that say LeBron is the best ever, though...

I'm trying to imagine the look on 205 pound Rochester Royals center Phil Jordan's face if 300 pound Shaq had walked onto the court in 1959. By the way, there were 7' centers in 1959 (Pistons center Walt Dukes was 7') but it was his incredible athleticism and strength that set Wilt apart. Wilt had 30 pounds on Walt Dukes, and it was all muscle.

In 1959 almost all the best athletes were still going to Football and Baseball. Lebron would have been a football player in 1959, not a basketball player. It's not that there weren't super athletes in 1959, there certainly were, they were just mostly going to the more established (and relatively higher paying) sports... just like they do now.

Posted by pexetera on 7/22/2019 12:32:00 PM (view original):
I'm trying to imagine the look on 205 pound Rochester Royals center Phil Jordan's face if 300 pound Shaq had walked onto the court in 1959. By the way, there were 7' centers in 1959 (Pistons center Walt Dukes was 7') but it was his incredible athleticism and strength that set Wilt apart. Wilt had 30 pounds on Walt Dukes, and it was all muscle.

Lol about seeing Shaq in '59. Given the haphazard way the league was run back then, I could see every big-man outside of Russell calling in sick every gameday against Shaq.
And, you're right, there were 7-footers, but not near as prevalent. Russell was 6'9", 220, about the same size as Robert Covington, and as we've noted, 11 rings in 13 seasons. Satch Sanders split PF duties with Tom Heinsohn (also a backup C) for most of the 60s Celtics teams. Satch was 6'5", 210, Heinsohn was 6'7", 220. Again, most PFs were the size of current SGs. In a league with under a dozen teams, each team had 1 or maybe 2 guys approaching Wilt's size, all with noticeably less athleticism and talent. Wilt was among the 1% in size, and by far the most athletic guy his size. None of this is to take anything from Wilt, he could've been an All-star in any era, and his stats mean you cannot leave him out of any top 5 ever discussions. But it's the same for Russell, and Russell is a winner. Winning and living up to the moment are part of what we consider in athlete's careers, so that's why I can't put Wilt above Russell/MJ. In my list, he's right behind them, slightly above KAJ. Again, it's all subjective, debates are part of the fun.
And for what it's worth, out of my top-5 ever, Wilt probably would've been the most fun to hang out with. Russell seemed to stoic to be fun, MJ would've turned everything into a competition, I've read from too many sources that KAJ was generally cranky, and LeBron (close one over Magic) is too worried about his brand image. Wilt would've been a good wingman, probably without even trying. Or at least he would've let you watch...

good stuff

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan*
4. LeBron James
5. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Dr. J
11. John Stockton

then ?
Karl Malone*
Charles Barkley
Im not sure how to rank Bill Russell - to me, he is the toughest (a winnner and defensivie gem but...)

how close to filling??
the 50s and 60s is going to be a GREAT exercise in team building....