Piggybacking on justinlee's note above, I think my concern is that in the first couple rounds luck will provide a double advantage that really has nothing to do with being a good owner. I suspect there are about 15 players who are strong candidates for Round 1 nomination, where every owner will think they want at least one of those guys on their roster. But ultimately we'll get 24 players spread out, so there will definitely be winners and losers off the bat.

Suppose you barely get outbid for Babe Ruth. You've now not only lost out on Ruth and everyone else you didn't nominate, but also lost all the money you bid. If you're one of the 10-15 owners who don't get your first bid, now you're bidding high again to try to salvage something good in the first round and likely now doubling your bid expense. And a few owners might have this happen a second or third time even.

Jtpsops is right that you likely can bid low for most of the draft and be fine. My point is that bad guesses or luck can cause a major disadvantage off the bat for a few owners, and my feeling is that's not the best way to determine a champion.

Attempting to segregate the commentary from the actual questions. Here are the actual questions that I think are outstanding:

---

For the 140m

-Nominating a player does not give you any rights to that player, correct? Just making sure I'm reading that right.
-Is there a minimum number of seasons/WIS seasons/whatever that a player has to have to be nominated?
-I'd like to know whether the nominating owner gets to pick the teammate he'll use before the draft begins.

For the 110m:

-The five players you twist off the original team are eligible to be re-twisted and on your actual roster?
-Is that 2nd twist mandatory or optional? In other words, if I twist a player to the 1978 Yankees, can I roster 1978 Guidry or would I have to twist him to another year?
-Is it fair to ask if you even have to use Guidry at all? Or just use him to take you to the 78 Yankees? If I can twist ANY 5 players from the 78 Yankees...does one of them have to be Guidry?

For the 255m:

-Does the owner who submits a winning bid for a player pay whatever they bid or the next highest bid + $1 million? This is a really important question because the strategies change a lot depending on which it is. (ie, are we using Vickrey)

Posted by redcped on 10/8/2019 1:03:00 PM (view original):
Piggybacking on justinlee's note above, I think my concern is that in the first couple rounds luck will provide a double advantage that really has nothing to do with being a good owner. I suspect there are about 15 players who are strong candidates for Round 1 nomination, where every owner will think they want at least one of those guys on their roster. But ultimately we'll get 24 players spread out, so there will definitely be winners and losers off the bat.

Suppose you barely get outbid for Babe Ruth. You've now not only lost out on Ruth and everyone else you didn't nominate, but also lost all the money you bid. If you're one of the 10-15 owners who don't get your first bid, now you're bidding high again to try to salvage something good in the first round and likely now doubling your bid expense. And a few owners might have this happen a second or third time even.

Jtpsops is right that you likely can bid low for most of the draft and be fine. My point is that bad guesses or luck can cause a major disadvantage off the bat for a few owners, and my feeling is that's not the best way to determine a champion.

Exactly. This is a game theory based theme, and does not really have anything to do with being a knowledge / skilled owner.

It's one of the reasons I never ran the "Exclusive Ownership" theme in all the years I ran this.

Posted by jfranco77 on 10/8/2019 1:33:00 PM (view original):
Attempting to segregate the commentary from the actual questions. Here are the actual questions that I think are outstanding:

---

For the 140m

-Nominating a player does not give you any rights to that player, correct? Just making sure I'm reading that right.
-Is there a minimum number of seasons/WIS seasons/whatever that a player has to have to be nominated?
-I'd like to know whether the nominating owner gets to pick the teammate he'll use before the draft begins.

For the 110m:

-The five players you twist off the original team are eligible to be re-twisted and on your actual roster?
-Is that 2nd twist mandatory or optional? In other words, if I twist a player to the 1978 Yankees, can I roster 1978 Guidry or would I have to twist him to another year?
-Is it fair to ask if you even have to use Guidry at all? Or just use him to take you to the 78 Yankees? If I can twist ANY 5 players from the 78 Yankees...does one of them have to be Guidry?

For the 255m:

-Does the owner who submits a winning bid for a player pay whatever they bid or the next highest bid + $1 million? This is a really important question because the strategies change a lot depending on which it is. (ie, are we using Vickrey)

Thanks -- I'll answer these soon. Busy day

Posted by justinlee_24 on 10/6/2019 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ozomatli on 10/5/2019 5:35:00 PM (view original):
$110M: Two Degree Twist
Pick a team. Twist 5 players to other teams that are each no more than 5 years removed from your base team in either direction. Example: I pick the 1927 Yankees as my base team. I can twist players to teams from 1922 - 1932.

Then, twist 5 players from each of those teams within the years you have available (i.e. 1922 - 1932) and use them to make up your roster.

However, none of the players you use can have been a WIS-eligible teammate of any of the WIS-eligible players from your base team at any point in their career, except for the player you twisted from your base team.

Other Specifics
Seasons: 1920 - 2019
DH: No
WW: No
AAA: No
Trades: No
Clones: No
Injuries: Turned On
Multi-team players: No restrictions (i.e., you can use partial or combined)
Ballpark: Must be the home park of your base team
300K Exception: No
Team Name: Reference your base team
Division Alignment: Random

I hope I'm misunderstanding something, because as far as I understand it, it would be near impossible to build a roster, a nightmare for me to see if my team is going to be valid, and a nightmare for you to check:

The base team is 1927 New York Yankees, which has 25 players. The 25 players that are eventually rostered (which would have to be from the years 1922-1932) must not have been teammates of any of the 1927 New York Yankees at any point in their careers. This means that I would have to check each of my 25 players to make sure that they never played on a roster that has a player that did or would go on to play for the 1927 New York Yankees.

Also would like to know if my understanding of the WISC $110M rules is correct.

Can we get some clarity on the "problem" themes?

Larger context: I have heard the feedback -- thanks as always -- and am still considering, but not guaranteeing there will be, tweaks to the 255M and 110M leagues. I will finalize things this weekend. As for the questions:

For the 140m

-Nominating a player does not give you any rights to that player, correct? Just making sure I'm reading that right.
Correct, nominated players are unable to be selected in the draft and cannot be used.
-Is there a minimum number of seasons/WIS seasons/whatever that a player has to have to be nominated?
Good question. I suppose the obvious strategy would be to pick someone who played 1 season and only had 1 good teammate and then try to pick him in the first round. Even if you didn't get him, that's a less fun draft. Let's say 5 WIS eligible seasons, minimum, for nominated players.
-I'd like to know whether the nominating owner gets to pick the teammate he'll use before the draft begins.
Nope. You just nominate the player. You have to weigh when to select one of their teammates like everyone else.

For the 110m:

-The five players you twist off the original team are eligible to be re-twisted and on your actual roster?
No, the players you have on your roster have to be 2nd-degree twists from your base team.
-Is that 2nd twist mandatory or optional? In other words, if I twist a player to the 1978 Yankees, can I roster 1978 Guidry or would I have to twist him to another year?
Mandatory, but you wouldn't be able to use Guidry.
-Is it fair to ask if you even have to use Guidry at all? Or just use him to take you to the 78 Yankees? If I can twist ANY 5 players from the 78 Yankees...does one of them have to be Guidry?
None of them can be Guidry since he violates the rule of having played with other players from whatever your base team was.

For the 255m:

-Does the owner who submits a winning bid for a player pay whatever they bid or the next highest bid + $1 million? This is a really important question because the strategies change a lot depending on which it is. (ie, are we using Vickrey)
They pay what they bid.

And justinlee_24's question (above):
Your interpretation of the rules is correct. Building a roster will be easier than I think you are worried about with the help of the Oracle of Baseball tool on BBR. I am also building a spreadsheet tool based on WIS-eligible seasons to help. I can say that verification will definitely be easier than you'd think. I understand this theme will be challenging, but this is Round 2, your 130M team is likely mostly built already, and the two lower cap themes are considerably more straightforward.

Mike, for the sake of clarity, could you post a sample team for the 110M theme, showing the twists? Doesn't have to be a good team, just a legal team.

I have been unable to build a legal team in this theme due to the "can't have been teammates" rule. Have you? My suggestion is to remove the "can't have been teammates" rule. It would make it easier to build and check rosters. Most of us have jobs and don't have dozens of hours to spend on this theme.

As for an example, I find having this visual helps a bit. At least for me, it did.

		2035 Yankees
/	/	|	\	\
Player A 2031 Yankees	Player B 2033 Cardinals	Player C 2031 Braves	Player D 2039 Orioles	Player E 2037 Giants
Players 1-5 Twisted from 2031 Yankees to any season between 2030-2040	Players 6-10 Twisted from 2033 Cardinals to any season between 2030-2040	Players 11-15 Twisted from 2031 Braves to any season between 2030-2040	Players 16-20 Twisted from 2039 Orioles to any season between 2030-2040	Players 6-10 Twisted from 2033 Cardinals to any season between 2030-2040
Chosen players can never have played with anyone on the 2035 Yankees other than Player A	Chosen players can never have played with anyone on the 2035 Yankees other than Player B	Chosen players can never have played with anyone on the 2035 Yankees other than Player C	Chosen players can never have played with anyone on the 2035 Yankees other than Player D	Chosen players can never have played with anyone on the 2035 Yankees other than Player E

Posted by discodemo on 10/11/2019 9:29:00 AM (view original):
Mike, for the sake of clarity, could you post a sample team for the 110M theme, showing the twists? Doesn't have to be a good team, just a legal team.

I have been unable to build a legal team in this theme due to the "can't have been teammates" rule. Have you? My suggestion is to remove the "can't have been teammates" rule. It would make it easier to build and check rosters. Most of us have jobs and don't have dozens of hours to spend on this theme.

You also didn't address justinlee's concern that it will take hours to check the legality of teams.

Or just amend it to "Cant have any players who played for your original team" IE pick a yankees season, but nobody who was ever a yankee can be on your final roster.

Here is the Oracle of Baseball tool ozo mentioned: https://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/linkability.cgi

I didn't even know this existed, but it's pretty cool. You put your chosen player in the spot where Babe Ruth's name currently is and hit submit. A table comes up telling you their connectivity. You click on "1" and it'll tell you all the players he has a connection of 1 to. Meaning they were teammates at some point in their careers. A very quick way to check each player.

JT I do like that we had the exact same thought on a script...I have like an entire notepad filled with scratched off versions of that tree

I keep waiting to see if any changes are coming before trying this Kevin Bacon league. Barely had time to start building anything anyway, but I'm still waiting for it to click how to start actually building this team. Work forwards? Work backwards?

It's going to be a challenge for sure, but as ozo said, it's Round 2. We should expect hard themes.

I understand the arguments around changes to the $255M league, as there's a big luck factor, but it seems most arguments around the $110M theme are simply that it's too hard. Being hard is a good thing for where we are at.

Two drafts running at the same time. One draft may require multiple picks on the same day. A very difficult and time consuming 110M theme. Say "adios" to your free time for the next month.