No.

But I'd probably rather have the guy who played more while being incredibly marginally less good, by this 1 metric, if I don't know anything else about them.

My main argument against Larry Walker being in the HOF is the number 8000. That's about how many PAs he had in his career. It's a low number for a guy who played a position with relatively low physical demands. For a catcher 8000 is quite good. For a 1B or COF it's small.

And then there's this from our earlier conversation:

Larry Walker on the road - .278/.370/.495, 4000 PAs
Manny Ramirez on the road - .314/.409/.580, 5000 PAs

I like Manny Ramirez. Even with the steroids, he's still one of the best RHH from 1990 on. That being said there's no way I'm taking a big, slow, roided one trick pony over a 5-tool player like Walker.

Larry Walker - 7 Gold Gloves

Manny Ramirez - 0 Gold Gloves


Larry Walker - 230 SB/ 75% success rate

Manny Ramirez - 38 SB/ 53% success rate


Larry Walker - 72.7 WAR

Manny Ramirez - 69.4 WAR


Larry Walker - .313/.400/.565 - 141 OPS+

Manny Ramirez - .312/.411/.585 - 154 OPS+

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2020 4:04:00 PM (view original):
No.

But I'd probably rather have the guy who played more while being incredibly marginally less good, by this 1 metric, if I don't know anything else about them.

My main argument against Larry Walker being in the HOF is the number 8000. That's about how many PAs he had in his career. It's a low number for a guy who played a position with relatively low physical demands. For a catcher 8000 is quite good. For a 1B or COF it's small.

And then there's this from our earlier conversation:

Larry Walker on the road - .278/.370/.495, 4000 PAs
Manny Ramirez on the road - .314/.409/.580, 5000 PAs

ignoring half the games the man played in is ridiculous. there are numbers like WAR and OPS+ that take ballpark into account, we don't have to pretend they don't exist.

what's more, here's a Larry Walker individual season:

home: .307/.419/.560
away: .225/.333/.382

sucked without Coors Field...oh wait that was 1993 when he played for the Expos. That noted Olympic Stadium boost!

3/8 of his plate appearances were when he didn't play for the Rockies. just such a hilariously dishonest argument.

OPS+ captures the same information. But for some reason since the number is smaller the difference is less impressed on a lot of observers. d_rock just posted the difference of 13 points of OPS+ - which is really a yawning chasm.

Two easy ways of looking at the difference between a 141 and a 154 OPS+. One is to try to see who's equally far on the other side of Manny. The answer is, unfortunately, absolutely nobody. But the closest, 14 points away, is Cobb. So the hitting difference between Manny and Walker is roughly equivalent to the difference between Manny and Cobb.

Or, more simply - 154 is good for 25th all time. 141 is 68th. 68th isn't bad. But it's pretty clearly a different tier from 25th. But d_rock posted it, suggesting he thought it wasn't a huge gap. It's just not as obvious as the difference between OPSing .989 and .865.

Also, I fail to see why being unable to perform on the road, regardless of reason, is irrelevant. Oh no, his home-road splits weren't at Coors! My point is destroyed! It's FINE to suck on the road if you don't play for the Rockies!

Talk about bullshit dishonest arguments...

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2020 4:04:00 PM (view original):
No.

But I'd probably rather have the guy who played more while being incredibly marginally less good, by this 1 metric, if I don't know anything else about them.

My main argument against Larry Walker being in the HOF is the number 8000. That's about how many PAs he had in his career. It's a low number for a guy who played a position with relatively low physical demands. For a catcher 8000 is quite good. For a 1B or COF it's small.

And then there's this from our earlier conversation:

Larry Walker on the road - .278/.370/.495, 4000 PAs
Manny Ramirez on the road - .314/.409/.580, 5000 PAs

I guess this means you're not high on Nolan Arenado.

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2020 6:28:00 PM (view original):
Also, I fail to see why being unable to perform on the road, regardless of reason, is irrelevant. Oh no, his home-road splits weren't at Coors! My point is destroyed! It's FINE to suck on the road if you don't play for the Rockies!

Talk about bullshit dishonest arguments...

because the home games count the same as the away games. the goal is to evaluate the overall body of work.

i cited that individual example because it is indicative of the massive amount of noise in home/road splits. other years in Montreal he was better on the road. HIs MVP year for the Rockies, his home/road splits were almost identical and he actually had 29 of his 49 HRs on the road. Park adjusted, he was much better on the road. In 1999, he was .461/.539/.879 at Coors (!!!!!) and a more human .286/.379/.519 on the road. That year, he was much better park adjusted at home.

Again, the games all count the same. You want to point to his lack of longevity, go ahead. But don't ignore half the games the guy played in. It's dishonest and stupid.

what you're doing is the equivalent of

Walker vs LHP: .306/.385/.518
Ramirez vs LHP: .335/.443/.619

and using that in an attempt to prove the (painfully obvious) point that Ramirez was better at hitting than Walker. it's the kind of thing I would expect from someone who doesn't understand statistics. since you clearly understand statistics very well, and are still cherry-picking, I can only assume you're being dishonest on purpose.

Walker at #56 in lifetime WAR among position players puts him ahead of a bunch of guys already enshrined. If he played in LA, NY or Boston he would have gone in 1st ballot.

Posted by DoctorKz on 1/23/2020 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Walker at #56 in lifetime WAR among position players puts him ahead of a bunch of guys already enshrined. If he played in LA, NY or Boston he would have gone in 1st ballot.

Fenway Park could be construed as being a huge home field advantage to a hitter. Never heard any writer's hold that against any Red Sox batters.

Arguably they should, but it's not remotely the same.

In 2019, even with the humidor, Coors field increased run scoring above a neutral field by 39%. Fenway Park was 6%. Bumping your RBI from 100 to 106 is basically in the statistical noise. 100 to 139 is not. Simiarly, for batting average, Coors produced a 30% boost, Fenway a 1% boost.

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/27/2020 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Arguably they should, but it's not remotely the same.

In 2019, even with the humidor, Coors field increased run scoring above a neutral field by 39%. Fenway Park was 6%. Bumping your RBI from 100 to 106 is basically in the statistical noise. 100 to 139 is not. Simiarly, for batting average, Coors produced a 30% boost, Fenway a 1% boost.

Surprised Fenway doesn't provide a huge home field advantage with the wall and Pesky Pole!

have there ever been stats on when coors is most normal - day vs night...certain months etc.

I make the Coors argument as much as anybody as it pertains to Rockies hitters, but Walker hit .350+ in 4 different seasons. How many players in general have done that in the last 25 years, much less Rockies players? Walker also slugged over .700 twice...there have only been 35 total seasons in history where a hitter has slugged that high. Let's not pretend it was all the field. Walker was a special player.

Posted by Got_Worms on 1/27/2020 4:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/27/2020 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Arguably they should, but it's not remotely the same.

In 2019, even with the humidor, Coors field increased run scoring above a neutral field by 39%. Fenway Park was 6%. Bumping your RBI from 100 to 106 is basically in the statistical noise. 100 to 139 is not. Simiarly, for batting average, Coors produced a 30% boost, Fenway a 1% boost.

Surprised Fenway doesn't provide a huge home field advantage with the wall and Pesky Pole!

best doubles park in the league, but its hard to hit HRs to straightaway right field, and the monster takes away a lot of line drive HRs

ideal for a lefty who hits a lot of flyballs to left