Question about perimeter Topic

I'm interested to get opinions on what rating you like to see in perimeter to consider a player a +2 for 3 pt frequency
7/6/2020 1:52 PM
what level and off/def?
7/6/2020 1:53 PM
Let's do DI and DII and motion/man
7/6/2020 2:27 PM
DII flex as well, while we're at it :)
7/6/2020 2:29 PM
I've never understood when it's ideal to go +1 or +2 and I think it's because of how the help tab is worded:
  • 0: A player will shoot a 3 in the flow of the offense.
  • +1: A player will actively begin searching for opportunities to shoot 3's
  • +2: Think J.J. Redick. A player is constantly looking for the opportunity to shoot a 3.
I've always left it at 0 (or down to -1, -2) because why would I want someone not playing within the flow of the offense? Even JJ Redick, I want him running backdoors and utilizing his elite shooting ability to take open mid range shots.

Trying to think in terms of HD - if a guy is 99 PER but also has high ATH/SPD/BH/LP then I want him attacking the basket, right? I could see where it would make sense to have a guy with 90+ PER but 40 BH and 10 LP set at +1 or +2 because I don't want them turning the ball over attacking the paint or forcing shots at the rim but I'm not sure if that's the way the engine works.
7/6/2020 2:46 PM
I rarely put a player at +2. I will sometimes put a bench player at +2 with a low distribution if hes 90+ per and below 10 in LP ability. So maybe he comes off the bench for 10-15 min shoots 4-6 shots and all of those 3pt attempts. Rarely do i have a starter at +2.
7/6/2020 3:52 PM
Depends on Per/LP split. This guy is a pretty obviously +2 given he averages 66.4% eFG from 3 and 58.9% eFG from 2 (assuming he has been fouled 5 times in late game situations). He needs to be at +3 or something lol.
8.0.1
7/6/2020 4:17 PM
I've never gone above +1 before and even in those cases, at D3, I'd probably do it with a kid who is 80+ SPD and 80+ PER/BH only.

I may go +1 (maybe +2 in certain scenarios) with this kid who will eventually be 50+ in ATH and 85+ in SPD, PER, BH, and PASS in D3.
7/6/2020 5:32 PM
It's such a slippery slope. I've had a kid with 100 PER, not shoot as well from beyond the arc as a kid with 70 PER. They had similar supporting ratings too. I just don't know when it's high enough to prefer a player shoot more threes.
7/6/2020 5:45 PM
It really depends on a lot of different things but, in D2, I roughly use the following as a starting point:
90+ = +2
80-89 = +1
70-79 = 0
60-69 = -1
7/8/2020 5:15 PM (edited)
Posted by Baums_away on 7/6/2020 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I've never understood when it's ideal to go +1 or +2 and I think it's because of how the help tab is worded:
  • 0: A player will shoot a 3 in the flow of the offense.
  • +1: A player will actively begin searching for opportunities to shoot 3's
  • +2: Think J.J. Redick. A player is constantly looking for the opportunity to shoot a 3.
I've always left it at 0 (or down to -1, -2) because why would I want someone not playing within the flow of the offense? Even JJ Redick, I want him running backdoors and utilizing his elite shooting ability to take open mid range shots.

Trying to think in terms of HD - if a guy is 99 PER but also has high ATH/SPD/BH/LP then I want him attacking the basket, right? I could see where it would make sense to have a guy with 90+ PER but 40 BH and 10 LP set at +1 or +2 because I don't want them turning the ball over attacking the paint or forcing shots at the rim but I'm not sure if that's the way the engine works.
If you are setting a guy with 90+ PER at 0 I think you are probably leaving a lot of points on the table. Unless I am running an uptempo FB/FCP system and trying to get the other team in foul trouble I don't want JJ Reddick shooting mid range shots or attacking the basket.
7/6/2020 5:52 PM
i agree with mrslam. its hard to simplify this but generally his approach sounds legit. d1 guys with 90+ per, and close to 90 per/spd/bh, those guys usually are +2.

the uh, the FAQ or whatever that is from, i would just ignore that. that sounds pretty dumb and useless. here's how i would put it:

- there does seem, in my opinion, to be a small benefit from a shot selection / efficiency standpoint, from running a -1. as in, you'll take fewer 3s, but at a little higher % than you would have otherwise. perhaps this is purely because those -1 guys are taking more 3s against heavy - defenses, or crap guards, or whatever. or maybe the -1 also provides a direct boost to 3pt% (it would be both if anything, direct and indirect) - but it is pretty clear that whether indirectly or otherwise, the -1 improves 3pt%.

- on the + side, is the opposite effect in play? probably, but its very slight. i run guys on +2 all the time, i've had a fair number of titles with my 2 best scorers on +2 scoring 18-20 ppg, and they still easily break 40% 3s on a really tough schedule. if +2 hurts your top end guys 3pt%, i would estimate its around 2%. as in like 40% at +2 vs 42% at 0. in this case, im pretty positive no direct penalty exists, but i do think you pay a similar indirect penalty on shot selection. like how against a +3 for example, a dude at 0 is taking fewer 3s, and making up for them against a -3, so he ends up basically taking more of his 3s in favorable conditions (on a % basis). the +2 dude is taking 3s no matter what, even though a guy on +2 will still adjust significantly to what the defense gives them, especially if they have a bunch of lp. so the efficiency drops on 3s, because the player is less adjusting to what the defense gives him. but if you were to say, when the guy actually goes to take a 3, a specific 3, of specific difficulty against a specific team - does the +/- of his 3pt scoring affect efficiency? i'm guessing not - both for the + and - actually. i think its all indirect effect. but on the +, i would almost say for sure - there is no penalty outside of shot selection. the - is murkier. i've seen some weird **** there and i do not lean strongly either way.

- teams should usually be roughly in the 30%s for 3pt attempts, as a % of fga, (1000 fga -> 300 to 400 3pta, higher end for lower division teams, perhaps middle-ish for d1 teams). obviously some fluctuation in there, you can be down around the mid 20s and still be really good, you can see freak teams up around 50% who are still pretty good. mfnmeyers can run with 0% and be pretty good, although i doubt that's the optimal way to play fb/fcp. but anyway, its just WAY easier to get your 3pt% up in that range, at an extremely efficient rate, if you use +1 and +2 heavily on your best guys. therefore, i would definitely recommend doing so.

i will qualify all of this, i tend to only really pay attention to really good 3pt scorers (my whole scheme relies on the foundation of elite 3pt scoring from a few elite 3pt scorers, that is the one constant i use across all schemes) - i suspect the shot selection benefits/penalties for the +/-, those have got to be bigger when you are less consistently excellent. a dude with 70 spd/per/bh is going to pay a lot more for forcing the 3 than a 95 per 90spd/bh guy. and he'll probably benefit on a % basis, a lot more from a -1, than the 95 per guy. so be a little cautious in taking what im saying here TOO far, especially if you are not really competing for titles regularly yet. don't get me wrong - the +2 should be part of the playbook of basically every coach out there. its just doesn't feel so mandatory until you get into the higher end players. mandatory is probably the wrong word. but strongly indicated, perhaps?
7/6/2020 6:27 PM
if your 3 point shooters are hitting 40% of their 3 pt shots against very good competition you need to either increase their distro or make them plus

unless your entire team is dominant - in which case pay no attention to me!
7/6/2020 7:17 PM
I feel like I way undershoot 3s. And I set anybody above 90 PER to +2 and that's all they do is Jack up 3s (ex. 250 total FGA and 220 will be 3s, at 40%). But I also try to have good LP scoring on the roster as well to create balance. My NKU team had excellent 3 point shooting, and nothing else this season. And we lost a lot of big games because I got +5'd a lot. (Didn't expect a good year). Next season I'm returning two 90s LP bigs. And that will help keep that from happening again

Back to my point of not shooting enough 3s.... my "Mr Slam style settings" are....

91 and up is +2 in most cases
86-90 is +1
81-85 is 0
below 80 I set to -2

Now I know everyone will tell me that's where I go wrong at. But 1) I aim for 40% from deep. And not less. And 2) I usually have enough of everything to run this way and have good balance.

I bend my own rules when needed. For example if I had a young team with no seniors, but 4 guys with 77 PER, I'd probably set them all to -1 or 0 just to get some 3 point shooting numbers so i don't get -5'd every game.
7/6/2020 9:20 PM
Do you aim for 60% shooting on 2pt shots?
7/6/2020 9:23 PM
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