+1 for Tangy!!

THIS:

"Because of systemic racism dating back decades, black people on average have worse educational experiences than white people, which, alongside a bunch of other environmental factors, cause their dropout rates to be higher."

is very accurately explanatory.

ANYONE who does not accept the Historical racism of OUR Country (the root cause of all our divides), is a purposefully blind closet racist.
AND the Republican Party is now the party of closeted (and OPENLY) racists........... as well as anti-knowledge, anti poor folk, and anti-American VALUES (as evidenced by their current leader). The Republican party won't even stand up for our democratic process anymore.

We are NOT an exceptional Country. We are a people at each others throats over race, fear, and poverty........ and I didn't even mention religion!!
ANYTIME some one tries to claim American exceptionalism they should be clearly and quickly shot down with KNOWN historical evidence of our COLLECTIVE and sadly ignorant and racist past!!

On a separate note. This pandemic has done some good.
It has clearly revealed what it is that Americans worship............. and it ain't God!!

MONEY. This Nation now has Money as their God.
We COULD have elevated the sanctity of life and TRIED to stop the virus and save lives by shutting down the entire Country for (say) 3 or 4 weeks.
It wouldn't have stopped the virus BUT it would have saved 1000's of lives.

But no, we couldn't shut the Country down. Too much loss of income, too much damage to the economy!!
The REAL GOD raised it's head.
Bow down to the $$$$.
It's who you worship!

Posted by tangplay on 2/15/2021 1:10:00 AM (view original):
I do enjoy conversing with you, strikeout. There are substance to your posts. I just believe that it is extremely obvious on every level that systemic racism is a thing.

btw, the strawman of "systemic racism means white people force black people to drop out at higher rates" is BS. The more accurate statement would be "Because of systemic racism dating back decades, black people on average have worse educational experiences than white people, which, alongside a bunch of other environmental factors, cause their dropout rates to be higher."

Here’s a quick, abbreviated response. Sorry.

No rational person doubts that past racism has put POC at a disadvantage. It is pretty easy to point towards policies within systems from past generations that hurt certain groups. Those groups are having to play catch-up. There’s the obvious such as slavery and Jim Crowe, and then there’s the more opaque such as minimum wage, welfare, et al. And yes, black people were actually doing better before the enactment of minimum wage and the war on poverty despite our country being significantly more racist.

The term “systemic racism” implies that the systems are still racist, but yet no one can point to a specific policy that puts minority groups at a disadvantage: not Tang, not Robin DiAngelo, not Ibram Kendi. If anything, minority groups enjoy an advantage when it comes to policy.

Showing disparities does nothing more than show that our country has some past transgressions that it has to grapple with. It in no way proves that our systems are racist today. If you want to convince me that it exists, you will need to point me to specific policies.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/15/2021 11:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/15/2021 1:10:00 AM (view original):
I do enjoy conversing with you, strikeout. There are substance to your posts. I just believe that it is extremely obvious on every level that systemic racism is a thing.

btw, the strawman of "systemic racism means white people force black people to drop out at higher rates" is BS. The more accurate statement would be "Because of systemic racism dating back decades, black people on average have worse educational experiences than white people, which, alongside a bunch of other environmental factors, cause their dropout rates to be higher."

Here’s a quick, abbreviated response. Sorry.

No rational person doubts that past racism has put POC at a disadvantage. It is pretty easy to point towards policies within systems from past generations that hurt certain groups. Those groups are having to play catch-up. There’s the obvious such as slavery and Jim Crowe, and then there’s the more opaque such as minimum wage, welfare, et al. And yes, black people were actually doing better before the enactment of minimum wage and the war on poverty despite our country being significantly more racist.

The term “systemic racism” implies that the systems are still racist, but yet no one can point to a specific policy that puts minority groups at a disadvantage: not Tang, not Robin DiAngelo, not Ibram Kendi. If anything, minority groups enjoy an advantage when it comes to policy.

Showing disparities does nothing more than show that our country has some past transgressions that it has to grapple with. It in no way proves that our systems are racist today. If you want to convince me that it exists, you will need to point me to specific policies.

This is really just a semantic argument about how systemic racism is defined. If you accept that past overt racism - amongst both policies and individuals - has created a clearly defined racial gap in most metrics of achievement, then tang's definition of systemic racism clearly exists. I think an apt analogy to a different complex system makes this definition more clear. The human body has a single organ - the brain - that's responsible for high-level policy and decision making. The government is the "brain" of our society. Some psychosomatic illnesses certainly exist; sometimes, when things are broken, it's the brain's fault. But much of the time we are ill and it has nothing to do with the brain. We can have multi-system organ failure which the brain never had anything to do with, or as a result of directions the brain may have given decades ago (for example, to smoke or drink heavily). It's still a systemic illness. You're looking at a dying man, saying his brain isn't doing anything wrong, and then arguing that means there's nothing wrong. There are systems that can be racist without policy backing.

The question this leaves me with - and presumably you as well - is whether and when the government is really the correct agent to institute corrective changes. The government tends to overcorrect. To continue the analogy, in cases of severe infection at times a medically-induced coma to take the brain totally offline improves outcomes. I have significant doubt that the solution to systemic racism arising from past racially-unequal policies is to endorse racially-unequal policies.

Correct, dahs.

And btw, I don't advocate for racially-unequal policies. My M.O. for fixing systemic racism has always been to create as much equal opportunity as possible. if we agree that historical racism is at the root of much of the disparity today, that's a problem that needs to be fixed.

Strikeout - If you're looking for laws on the books today that specifically discriminate against black people, then I have nothing for you. The culprit of modern systemic racism comes through implicit biases. For example, police are more likely to pull you over and arrest you for possession of marijuana if you are black, despite white people using the drug at similar rates. This isn't because of a law on the books telling police to arrest more black people. It's because black people are implicitly perceived as more dangerous and more criminal than white people.

Here's another example - civil forfeiture. As a libertarian, I'm sure you agree with me that civil forfeiture is a huge problem today. Black people get WAYYYYY more taken from them through forfeiture, even when no criminal charge is filed. This is because black people get pulled over by police at significantly higher rates, when there is no justification.

These disparities exist wherever you look in the criminal justice system especially. It's undeniable, and it's been proven over and over again - from arrests, to bail, to sentencing, etc. Outside the criminal justice system, these disparities also exist. I don't see how you can deny them.

If you want evidence from within these forums, CCCP has said repeatedly that if he were a police officer, he would racially profile black people because "they commit crimes at a higher rate." Can we all see how this might be a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Look, I again agree that on an individual basis, the choices of a single black person is more likely to be the cause of their success and failure than systemic racism. But when you expand the sample to millions of people, small disparities can add up and have a significant impact. This ****'s a real problem, and the first thing we have to do is acknowledge it. This isn't an important hill to die on.

"Because of systemic racism dating back decades, black people on average have worse educational experiences than white people, which, alongside a bunch of other environmental factors, cause their dropout rates to be higher."

Sorry, but I must disagree. I don't think it's blacks (or all POC) who receive worse education in today's society; I believe it's the poor, regardless of their race.
If you'd like to take that and twist it into "There are more poor POC.", so therefore more POC get worse education, then so be it.
Two children at the same poor City school - do they get the same experience? (The white one may get worse, as racism says "He doesn't need help.".)
Two children at the same fancy private school - do they get the same experience?
IT'S NOT RACE, IT'S INCOME.

Yeah, why are black people more poor, all3? Why do black people live disproportionately in school districts that receive less funding?

My claim was simply that on average, black people have worse educational experiences than white people. That's just a fact.

Also, if we really want to get into the nitty gritty, there have been studies on school discipline that find that black people get disproportionately punished, but that's super marginal. There could also be implicit biases of teachers themselves (more help being given to white people, but that's just speculation).

Both of you are correct. The rural poor deal with the very same education issues. There are many studies.

Posted by laramiebob on 2/15/2021 8:52:00 AM (view original):
+1 for Tangy!!

THIS:

"Because of systemic racism dating back decades, black people on average have worse educational experiences than white people, which, alongside a bunch of other environmental factors, cause their dropout rates to be higher."

is very accurately explanatory.

ANYONE who does not accept the Historical racism of OUR Country (the root cause of all our divides), is a purposefully blind closet racist.
AND the Republican Party is now the party of closeted (and OPENLY) racists........... as well as anti-knowledge, anti poor folk, and anti-American VALUES (as evidenced by their current leader). The Republican party won't even stand up for our democratic process anymore.

We are NOT an exceptional Country. We are a people at each others throats over race, fear, and poverty........ and I didn't even mention religion!!
ANYTIME some one tries to claim American exceptionalism they should be clearly and quickly shot down with KNOWN historical evidence of our COLLECTIVE and sadly ignorant and racist past!!

On a separate note. This pandemic has done some good.
It has clearly revealed what it is that Americans worship............. and it ain't God!!

MONEY. This Nation now has Money as their God.
We COULD have elevated the sanctity of life and TRIED to stop the virus and save lives by shutting down the entire Country for (say) 3 or 4 weeks.
It wouldn't have stopped the virus BUT it would have saved 1000's of lives.

But no, we couldn't shut the Country down. Too much loss of income, too much damage to the economy!!
The REAL GOD raised it's head.
Bow down to the $$$$.
It's who you worship!

ANYONE who does not accept the Historical racism of OUR Country (the root cause of all our divides), is a purposefully blind closet racist.

Hmm. 'My way or the Highway.. You are imposing your views on the rest of us

Yes, if you don't think Jim Crow was racist you are probably a racist as well.

Posted by tangplay on 2/17/2021 10:24:00 PM (view original):
Yes, if you don't think Jim Crow was racist you are probably a racist as well.

Joe Biden is a racist. Here are some quotes:

“Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”

“You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” (That’s in reference to President Obama.)

“Unlike the African-American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly diverse attitudes about different things.”

“In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

I find those to be very interesting comments, considering he is saying he is going to solve the 'race issues'

Posted by lostnfound74 on 2/17/2021 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/17/2021 10:24:00 PM (view original):
Yes, if you don't think Jim Crow was racist you are probably a racist as well.

Joe Biden is a racist. Here are some quotes:

“Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”

“You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” (That’s in reference to President Obama.)

“Unlike the African-American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly diverse attitudes about different things.”

“In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

I find those to be very interesting comments, considering he is saying he is going to solve the 'race issues'

Weird pivot. What you said has nothing to do with what I said.

If these comments make you racist, I got some bad news for ya about Trump and Limbaugh... and most Republicans...

Posted by lostnfound74 on 2/17/2021 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Trump received the greatest Hispanic vote by any Republican candidate...

It turns out, people who take the time to do the right thing and immigrate here legally, don't want illegals here either.. and most of them don't want the left's Socialism either, they've seen it and know that it's crap

False. George W. Bush received the greatest percentage of latino votes in the history of presidential elections.

Posted by lostnfound74 on 2/17/2021 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Trump received the greatest Hispanic vote by any Republican candidate...

It turns out, people who take the time to do the right thing and immigrate here legally, don't want illegals here either.. and most of them don't want the left's Socialism either, they've seen it and know that it's crap

A grand total of... 32%.

I love that a Canuck is so intent on denying the racist History of the U.S.

One question Sir.

Are you claiming that my statement (that the U.S. of A. has a Historically racist past) is Not true??
Is Not a FACT?

If that's your claim, you must not have studied ANY U.S. History up there in Canada.
OR, you're just so delusional you refuse to accept basic facts that shake your misguided preconceptions.

I'd bet on the latter.