The issue isn't clones. It's State Farm teams run amuck, and they're still possible even without two Stocktons. I'm running one and it's purely for survival as I correctly assumed there would be a ton of them in the first open league with this new cap. But I don't like it and I'm not alone.

No clones would certainly make State Farms a harder build so if that's what it takes to cut them down then I would be for it. But until the algorithm gets re-written, it would be better if we all just agreed this is a completely unrealistic glitch that kills open league competition, and make some sort of gentleman's agreement to stop using them.

Ash (or someone) has mentioned levelling down the tiering so that the impact of stacking ASG isn't quite so exponential - you should get a boost and then maybe a little more boost and then at a certain point you're just passing the ball back and forth and no one is shooting and you're like 'well what's the point in that?'

Posted by jcred5 on 2/20/2021 6:53:00 AM (view original):
I was all excited for the 47m open league until I saw it was being jammed up with crazy high assist clones that hack the sim engine and are basically unbeatable. sad. Wish they would also make no clones the 47m open default.

totally agree !! BAN clones ! ................ please

Posted by Kona1 on 2/20/2021 10:40:00 AM (view original):
The issue isn't clones. It's State Farm teams run amuck, and they're still possible even without two Stocktons. I'm running one and it's purely for survival as I correctly assumed there would be a ton of them in the first open league with this new cap. But I don't like it and I'm not alone.

No clones would certainly make State Farms a harder build so if that's what it takes to cut them down then I would be for it. But until the algorithm gets re-written, it would be better if we all just agreed this is a completely unrealistic glitch that kills open league competition, and make some sort of gentleman's agreement to stop using them.

We should all collectively agree to not use clones ! Or like, I and others say, put a ban on it ASAP. Because there are going to be more and more people being forced to build State Farm/ 2 stockton's teams; just to keep up and have a chance at making it deep! I'm basically a newbie and LOVE NBA OL! But this is going to get old FAST. ------ Its already old; seeing 18 teams with Stockton, Stockton, Lebron, Lebron/Rodman, Rodman

Banning clones goes against the spirit of the website. As Kinoa stated, clones aren't the problem. Also, no offense meant to tommytripod, but new governors have come along for years & years saying the same thing without an understanding of what they were actually saying. There's so much more to it than just dumping the names you see on a strong team into the draft center and churning out a champion yourself.

I have engineered a relatively simple (mathematically) fix for State Farm but as mentioned earlier, doing anything to the actual engine is not really something that's going to happen soon. Anything of this magnitude will probably have to come with a full re-work of the engine.

Yeah I'm not for banning clones. I'm also ok with State Farms in high cap leagues. It's open leagues where they hold a uniquely unfair advantage over any other team. I've beaten them with cookie cutters only a handful of times, and with my State Farms, they've won a 'ship every time except once ... to another State Farm.

I'd love it if you could get your fix implemented Ash. But I agree ... a full re-work of the engine is unlikely. So until then it would be nice to see this long awaited fix to open leagues not get immediately soured by a non stop frenzy of State Farm teams.

Posted by ashamael on 2/25/2021 10:20:00 PM (view original):
Banning clones goes against the spirit of the website. As Kinoa stated, clones aren't the problem. Also, no offense meant to tommytripod, but new governors have come along for years & years saying the same thing without an understanding of what they were actually saying. There's so much more to it than just dumping the names you see on a strong team into the draft center and churning out a champion yourself.

I have engineered a relatively simple (mathematically) fix for State Farm but as mentioned earlier, doing anything to the actual engine is not really something that's going to happen soon. Anything of this magnitude will probably have to come with a full re-work of the engine.

No offense taken, my brotha! I respect your thoughts & opinions!

I understand that its not a 100% guarantee that the State Farm team you drafted will win you a Championship; but at minimum, you're going to the playoffs! (with minimal coaching too)---- I know this is an agree to disagree kind of opinion that I have; But I can see the OL's turning into Clone-TEAMS of CLONES (lol) which smells very boring.

However, I know from reading Forums that its not just "banning of clones" that would fix everything.... It would help though

Anyways, thanks for letting me vent! haha

Tommy, you should check out the theme league circuit. It sounds like every one of your gripes will be solved by default there. Almost all themes have no clones by default, and most of them limit the player pool enough that it's impossible to build a team with the guys you see dominating the open leagues. I highly recommend the two premiere draft leagues, the ODL & the $52m draft league. You'll learn more in one season there if you pay attention / ask questions than years of banging your head against the wall in other leagues.

re: your opinion - it's not really *that* far off. There's just more to it than grabbing random seasons of guys you see a lot. One of the biggest things you have to remember in this sim is that player names don't mean ****; every individual season is uniquely unique. 66-67 Wilt, for example, is absolutely nothing like 61-62 Wilt. While many players do have the same characteristics that make their determining numbers somewhat consistent throughout the years (Steph Curry from 13-14 on; Dennis Rodman from 88-89 on; Shaq's entire career almost, Stockton from 87-88 through the early 2ks, etc), you have to separate the label on the player from the data that makes the player perform the way they do. Even Stockton's 87-88 & 94-95 are drastically different, though they are typically the picks for the State Farm back court. You don't see 05-06 Lebron on those teams for a similar reason.

There are, of course, exceptions to this. In progs you draft a player and keep him until he either retires or you trade/cut him. In the Savage contest, you draft a dude and use five seasons of him, so you typically draft a guy who has five seasons that are somewhat consistent (exceptions to this exception do occur, quite frequently once you get past the first couple of rounds).

Try some theme leagues, man. They are exponentially more interesting once you get your footing.

my penny on the table: open league should be open to whatever (clones included)

the problem with rookies was luck of the draw you could land 2000 minutes of golden nuggets or you could land a handful of crap or anywhere in between - making that a condition in a competitive environment was BS,

Clones, on the other hand, is just have fun if you can make it work (have all the Worms!) but yeah fix the assists boost and let's get to work on the fearsome 5 Manutes team I keep envisioning because.....

there's always going to be another thing (which btw should be bleeding edge what the opens are good for anywho)

Posted by copernicus on 2/26/2021 6:02:00 PM (view original):
my penny on the table: open league should be open to whatever (clones included)

the problem with rookies was luck of the draw you could land 2000 minutes of golden nuggets or you could land a handful of crap or anywhere in between - making that a condition in a competitive environment was BS,

Clones, on the other hand, is just have fun if you can make it work (have all the Worms!) but yeah fix the assists boost and let's get to work on the fearsome 5 Manutes team I keep envisioning because.....

there's always going to be another thing (which btw should be bleeding edge what the opens are good for anywho)

agreed 100%

Posted by ashamael on 2/26/2021 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Tommy, you should check out the theme league circuit. It sounds like every one of your gripes will be solved by default there. Almost all themes have no clones by default, and most of them limit the player pool enough that it's impossible to build a team with the guys you see dominating the open leagues. I highly recommend the two premiere draft leagues, the ODL & the $52m draft league. You'll learn more in one season there if you pay attention / ask questions than years of banging your head against the wall in other leagues.

re: your opinion - it's not really *that* far off. There's just more to it than grabbing random seasons of guys you see a lot. One of the biggest things you have to remember in this sim is that player names don't mean ****; every individual season is uniquely unique. 66-67 Wilt, for example, is absolutely nothing like 61-62 Wilt. While many players do have the same characteristics that make their determining numbers somewhat consistent throughout the years (Steph Curry from 13-14 on; Dennis Rodman from 88-89 on; Shaq's entire career almost, Stockton from 87-88 through the early 2ks, etc), you have to separate the label on the player from the data that makes the player perform the way they do. Even Stockton's 87-88 & 94-95 are drastically different, though they are typically the picks for the State Farm back court. You don't see 05-06 Lebron on those teams for a similar reason.

There are, of course, exceptions to this. In progs you draft a player and keep him until he either retires or you trade/cut him. In the Savage contest, you draft a dude and use five seasons of him, so you typically draft a guy who has five seasons that are somewhat consistent (exceptions to this exception do occur, quite frequently once you get past the first couple of rounds).

Try some theme leagues, man. They are exponentially more interesting once you get your footing.

Ash, I appreciate the advice ! I will definately check out and get my feet wet in the other leagues!

It's soo weird... I feel Im in this grey space where I am a total advocate of people drafting whomever they want; And never want to come off like im crying that teams are better than mine! So I pray people dont think that when I'm venting my thoughts..---.I just look at SLB-Open league as a real life/realistic SIM (besides the obvious lol )- and personally think it'd be more fun without people being able to draft clones..thats all..

Anyways, as I mentioned above, I do appreciate the advice and suggestions! I think Theme League is my calling haha

Thanks again brotha!

P.S. I apologize for going off topic on this FORUM, but idk where best to ask

If I was to create my own Theme League are there a set of rules I can enforce or do I just have to type in the description and hope ppl follow the rules/guidelines? Sorry, as you can tell, I am green to theme leagues lol

Any advice on creating your first theme league ?

you can set salary cap and no clones and no waiver wire and create other parameters as you see fit - recruit other owners and keep it private or leave it as an open option in the draft center - recruitment is a challenge as there aren't so many of us so being creative with the other parameters part is helpful

Thank you Copernicus !! I really do appreciate you and Ash taking time to respond to me w/ advice

I'm most likely going to start a theme league with 44mil cap, no clones, waiver wire (yes), rookies (yes); everything else= standard OL

However, it will be a lil later down the road until 1 of my 2 current teams' season is over...

When I do, ill probably write in the league chat's, im in, about it and hopefully gather as many ppl as I can... Because from what it looks and sounds like, could be sitting in lobby for days/weeks before finally filled and ready to start

Hey guys, I use to play this game a lot under my bball_jones account, until I got totally nauseated by what you now call "State Farm" teams. My approach to the game had always been intuitive and I had managed to be very competitive for all the time I played until the AP48/ast% glitch abuse ruined it. I was so disgusted by what the game had turned into that I even deleted that account lol.
But being a lifelong NBA fan I missed the good old days (pre State Farm) badly and kept hoping that something would eventually be done to fix that glitch/abuse.
So, when I read about what aldorenz was doing throughout the WIS games I decided to have a peek at this forum and see if there was light at the end of the tunnel...
I thought getting rid of rookies and adding 5mil$ to the cap to compensate for rookie minutes was a great move and was about to buy a team and draft until I read about the fact that the bonus cash served to only boost State Farm numbers...
I've been itching to draft Wilt, DrJ, MJ and all those other legends of the games we just can't use against State Farm but I guess I'll have to wait some more.
Or maybe I should check out the Theme Leagues, I'm guessing there must be plenty of you guys that are sick enough of those teams in OLs that you have some good Themes going regularly?