When we 'just draft' more IP and PA it dilutes the quality of players.

I wonder if this change is being driven by those that favor theme leagues ?
Personally, I don't like a league that limits you to Just Yankees, or just 1885-1930, or whatever other crazy version someone can dream up...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Let the owners vote !!

pruman1992, the change has already happened for new open leagues.

I took a look at your current teams and you have one open league team in progress with a roster of every cookie in the book. if you want to run the same roster of cookies over and over and beat up on noobs, that's your prerogative, but one of the reasons I like this change is it will force people to have to adapt and/or manage well. I would be in favor of setting the open league cap at a random level between $70 and $150 million every six months just to force people to actually have to use their brain instead of cookie cutting.

AAA don’t provide much value overall. The pitchers are roughly between 25-110 IP, usually you’ll get around 60-80 IP combined from your pitchers. If you get less they’re better quality, if you get more they’re garbage.

the hitters are roughly between 150-600 PA and it’s the same story, the fewer pa the better quality, and the more pa, the worse quality.

in both cases because of the aaa players in OLs normalizing to the last season instead of their RL season, that sometimes skews that valuation in either direction. But on average, your AAA players are worth about 1.5 wins more than the scrubs you’d draft to send down for them, the absolute best aaa players are worth around 4.5 wins more than your scrubs. If you’re not sending down scrubs and sending down PH/platoon style players, you’re rarely gaining more than a win, even with the best AAA player. And when you are it’s usually because you also drafted excess PA and are able to waive that player you sent down and pick up an RP or more streamlined PH/platoon player that now compliments your AAA added roster.

the impact is incredibly minimal and really only impacts those who were fully able to capitalize on AAA value to begin with.

that said, the idea that you’ll need to draft more IP or PA to compensate is only true if you were bringing less than 1200 innings (1,150 + 50 IP of $200k scrubs sent down) and less than 5,000 PA. Otherwise, you can still bring whatever you brought before.

I recently ran two identical teams in an OL and CL testing fatigue (I’ll post the exact roster tomorrow when I have access to my computer - Roster now below). The OL team won 89 games and the CL team won 83. Both took the WC, both made the WS (funny enough, the CL version won) and both ended up in the final 4 of the same TOC. The kicker, I only brought around 1,040 IP (I’ll get exact total tomorrow - 1,046 IP, see roster below) and sent the rest of my scrub IP down so they wouldn’t be used (these were pitching fatigue test teams). I am no longer testing pitching fatigue, but have been focused on drafting teams for Coors, and most of them bring 1,175-1,250 IP and I rarely run into fatigue problems there. I’ve brought 1,300-1,370 on a couple where my pitching quality was lower thinking I’d need more IP to offset the quality, but that hasn’t been the case there either. Even the $8m pitching staff I entered with a little extra IP, I ended up waiving IP away because I didn’t need it and ran with around 1,220 for 130-140 games.

the idea that you’ll need 1,500 IP and 6,000 PA is ludicrous.

1,300 and 5,300 are good starting points and you can adjust up/down from there depending on the rest of your roster/ballpark.

(From my phone, and possibly a little rambling)

[Edited to add in the inning totals I couldn't remember with certainty prior]:
Pitching Staff:

Role	Player	T	W-L-S	IP/162	ERA	OAV	WHIP	K/9	BB/9	HR/9	K-BB	Salary
		SP	1997 Greg Maddux	R	19-4-0	233	2.20	.236	0.95	6.85	0.77	0.35	177-20	$9,282,997
		SP/RP	1996 Kevin Brown	R	17-11-0	233	1.89	.220	0.94	6.14	1.27	0.31	159-33	$9,903,221
		SP/RP	2003 Jason Schmidt	R	17-5-0	208	2.34	.200	0.95	9.01	1.99	0.61	208-46	$8,643,694
		SP/RP	2002 Derek Lowe	R	21-8-0	220	2.59	.211	0.98	5.21	1.97	0.49	127-48	$8,509,896
		SP/RP	2006 Brandon League	R	1-2-1	43	2.53	.214	1.01	6.12	1.90	0.63	29-9	$1,295,019
		SP/RP	2013 Brandon Cumpton	R	2-1-0	31	2.05	.226	1.01	6.46	1.47	0.29	22-5	$902,725
		SP/RP	1993 Steve Foster	R	2-2-0	26	1.75	.235	1.09	5.61	1.75	0.35	16-5	$655,886
		SP/RP	1987 Jeff D. Robinson	R	2-1-4	27	3.04	.215	0.98	6.41	2.03	0.34	19-6	$823,439
		SP/RP	2019 Joe Smith	R	1-0-0	25	1.80	.209	0.96	7.92	1.80	0.72	22-5	$752,585
		SP/RP	optional
		SP/RP	optional
		SP/RP	optional
		SP/RP	optional
Pitching Totals					82-34-5	1,046	2.25	.218	0.96	6.72	1.53	0.44	779-177	$40,769,462

Then I also drafted, but tried not to use (Elmer Brown threw 2.0 IP for each of the two teams and I used a AAA pitcher for 10.33 IP on the CL team and for 8.33 IP on the OL team):

		SP/RP	2005 Danny Graves	R	1-1-10	39	6.52	.347	2.04	4.66	4.66	2.09	20-20	$222,702
		SP/RP	1914 Elmer Brown	R	1-2-0	39	3.93	.402	1.53	5.40	5.64	0.49	22-23	$212,643
		SP/RP	1931 Dutch Schesler	R	0-0-0	41	7.28	.385	2.17	3.29	4.23	0.94	14-18	$230,368
		SP/RP	2016 Tim Lincecum	R	2-6-0	38	9.16	.395	2.37	7.51	5.40	2.58	32-23	$203,127
Pitching Totals					86-43-15	1,203	2.82	.239	1.10	6.53	1.97	0.58	867-261	$41,638,302

The hitters:

	Pos	Player	B	PA/162	AB/162	HR	RBI	SB-CS	SO-BB	AB/HR	AVG	OBP	SLG	F/R	Salary
		C	1916 Wally Schang	S	423	358	7	38	14-17	44-38	48.3	.266	.358	.420	C/B	$2,943,179
		1B	1980 Willie Aikens	L	623	543	20	98	1-0	88-64	27.2	.278	.356	.433	C/D-	$3,394,650
		2B	1889 Lou Bierbauer	L	709	669	7	105	17-20	30-29	78.4	.304	.344	.417	C/A+	$5,674,654
		3B	1988 Bobby Bonilla	S	690	592	24	100	3-5	82-85	24.3	.274	.366	.476	C-/A+	$5,554,551
		SS	1936 Dick Bartell	R	603	537	8	42	6-7	36-40	63.8	.298	.355	.418	B-/A+	$5,142,781
		OF	1973 Billy North	S	642	554	5	34	53-20	89-78	110.8	.285	.376	.348	B-/A+	$5,628,796
		OF	1921 Max Carey	S	662	552	7	56	37-12	30-70	74.4	.309	.395	.430	C-/A+	$5,644,324
		OF	1919 Nemo Leibold	L	603	503	0	26	17-20	30-72	434.0	.302	.404	.353	D/C	$3,509,303
		C	2006 Chris Widger	R	87	76	1	7	0-0	20-9	76.0	.184	.264	.263	D+/B-	$203,899
		3B	1925 Ralph Michaels	R	59	53	0	6	1-0	9-6	50.0	.280	.357	.300	C/D-	$208,794
		Util	2001 Mario Valdez	L	67	54	1	8	0-0	18-12	54.0	.278	.418	.352	D-/D-	$256,151
		Util	1980 Steve Braun	L	88	78	1	10	0-0	7-10	78.0	.205	.295	.269	D-/D-	$200,233
Batting Totals					5256	4569	81	530	149-101	483-513	53.0	.286	.366	.406	C-/B-

I used the AAA C on each team as a backup for Schang when he fatigued below 80% (I really wanted the results to mirror as much as possible, so didn't want random AAA influencing outcomes) these catchers received 34 PA and 62 PA. A few others came in as PH or to rest others and accumulated 50 total PA between the four others on the CL team, and 48 total PA between three others on the OL team). So, including AAA and scrubs, the CL team used 12.33 IP from outside the 1,046 drafted for the test and 84 PA outside the test roster. The OL team used 10.33 IP and 110 PA. These were teams that brought 1,046 IP and 5256 PA. Both went to the WS and the final 4 of their TOC.

Yes, I pushed the limits about as far as possible, but this just goes to show that you don't ever need 1500 IP or 6000 PA. And the impact of AAA in terms of drafting is overstated. They're valuable, yes, but the impact of this change is not as detrimental as some are thinking it to be. This change of AAA should be a good shakeup with less to learn and understand for new owners, and bring about both more realism and less randomness to a game that already has a bunch of randomness built into the outcomes naturally.

Posted by chewy3344 on 2/21/2021 10:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by contrarian23 on 2/20/2021 11:30:00 AM (view original):
I have a hypothesis - completely unprovable.

If the situation were reversed...if the long time status quo was that OLs did not have AAA...and if admin proposed "hey, we're thinking about giving each OL team 8 random players of variable quality and playing time, with disguised names and ratings rather than stats"....I expect that absolutely NO ONE would support that move. And in fact that there would be an uproar.

Similarly, if they were launching OLs from scratch, that is if OLs did not exist at all, and they gave us two options: 80M cap straight up, or 80M cap plus "each team will get 8 random players of variable quality and playing time, with disguised names and ratings rather than stats", I expect very very very few owners would vote for option B.

So honestly I think the real issue here is not the move, it's the fact that it's a change from what people are used to and some people just don't like change in general. When what this game desperately needs is change in general. Yes, some changes will be better than others, some will have unintended consequences, etc., but the absolute worst thing they can do is "nothing." Let's give admin credit for being willing to shake things up.

Contrarian, I agree with you only that if it was starting from scratch the majority would choose not to have the fake name random skill AAA players. But that’s not why I and many others are upset by this decision. I don’t like this change because now we have to draft 6000 PA’s and 1500 IP with the same salary cap where we were drafting 4800-5000 PA’s and 1200-1300 IP.
So the real question to ask is would you rather have weaker players or stronger players?
I dont mind losing the AAA players, I only care about effectively losing the cap to spend. It shouldn’t be too hard for an admin to run a report to see what the average PA and IP drafted has been in the last year or some time period. Then make a simple calculation to see what the average $/PA and $/IP has been. Then just pro-rate the cap upwards from $80 to whatever the calculation tells us. For example if the average has been 5000 PA and 1250 IP, lets assume people split the cap 50%/50% so $40 million for hitting and pitching each. 6000 / 5000 = 1.2, 1.2 x $40M = $48M. 1500 / 1250 = 1.2, 1.2 x $40M = $48M. 48 + 48 = 96. So I think a $96 million cap without AAAplayers would get us the same caliber of players we drafted before the change.

Please, if you see this, DONT draft 1500 innings.

I don’t even draft 1400 innings in the most competitive $100 mil leagues.

I got thru a Mile High Stadium only theme at $80 mil with 1327 IP + 32 IP from 1 AAA pitcher.

You do not need that many innings

https://www.whatifsports.com/mlb-l/playerstats.asp?teamid=1560832

https://www.whatifsports.com/mlb-l/playerstats.asp?teamid=1560833

My two teams in the fielder test twisl, both with under 4900PA, and around 1250-1260 total IP counting 50-60 mop up innings.

fatigue is just fine - it’s not so much that rosters can’t be built without AAA, I personally just don’t think it was the right move for OL’s. It is what it is and I’ll still play it

Good morning SLB community,

I wanted to let you all know that I have been following the thread and seen all of the mixed feedback via sitemail, email, and the forums. I would like to address a couple of things.

1) The removal of AAA in standard open leagues, was a decision made to help brand new users to the site. Let's have a moment of honesty here: the site without brand new users that stick around WIS will die eventually (probably in the next 3-5 years).

With the lack of updates since the FOX era and the continued lack of adjustments and changes, all of the games populations are down significantly since the golden era of WIS. The games have continued to churn users month after month since joining SportsHub. I would like to bring us back to those golden days, but how do we accomplish that? Primarily, by bringing in new users that have a spot where the game is more new user friendly, learn the basics, join our community, and continue to play the game in more difficult or different modes.

It doesn’t mean that I think new users are more important than our current user base, but it is also in veteran users' interest to bring in new users as well, and not to beat in Open Leagues or to prey on for trades, but to learn the game and join our community.

2) Why are there not two options for OL (AAA and non-AAA)? Great question. The answer is our technology stack and past coding by the previous development team(s). It actually was the initial idea, but required A LOT of programming and sketchy database work (which we are still willing to do). Adding or adjusting anything in these games, is a scary process. The core of the game is close to 20 years old, think about the type of phones and technology the world was using back in 2001-2006. Chris and I talked about it, and I made the decision to test this new approach out.

Adding two options is something that we are still investigating but I tend to think that although this does shake things up, the change isn’t so massive that it ruins the experience. Some of the users in this thread, tend to disagree and that’s completely fine. The WIS team will continue to monitor the situation and going back is always a possibility.

3) Why were salary caps not increased with the removal of AAA players? I put out a poll about a month ago at this point asking for feedback around a potential increase to salaries in Open Leagues. I would say the majority of the group asked for the salaries to stay the same or even decrease them a little to provide more realistic results in the engine for OL. There was even a theme formed by a couple of the veteran members of the community to test that out with a $75 cap and real names on AAA players. This was another way to accomplish the same goal.

4) Is this change permanent? I don't know, yet. Nothing is permanent or has to be in application or game development. I do think based on this game mostly being stagnant for the last four years since dynamic pricing was discontinued, it is not a surprising response to see some players express unhappiness about change. While I empathize with the fear or adjustment of change, I would just ask that you give it a fair shot. I am not so arrogant that after we give this a bit of time and it doesn't work to revert back to having AAA again in OL's , or try something new.

Lastly, I would like to say, I believe that my goals are in alignment with yours to create and continue to have a fun game that enables us to continue to grow our community so that WhatIfSports once again can be the premier game in the sport simulation field.

I will continue to monitor the thread. Thanks again for all of the feedback, good and bad, it shows that this community cares tremendously about the game. We as a development team are lucky to have a user base like all of you.

Sincerely,

WIS Team

Thanks for the update, love the honest transparency.

I did like the AAA players. For me it was like the surprise in a cereal box or in the chocolate egg... First thing I did when an OL had started was to check out what WIS Santa had dropped at the base of my baseball team tree.... There was usually at least one or two that would prove useful to the team and I even liked some of the funky names, a few come to mind, Jesus Walker, Thomas Jefferson, Pete Parker... I never did rely on them, never used one to wave a real player. Very rarely bothered to use the charts to find out real identity, I did enjoy the mystery part of it. So yeah, I will miss them, but then again, I'm ok with trying something new. What I'm not as ok with is that the owners/customers never had a saying in the matter, I remember back when WIS still owned WIS, how the devs would always consider owners/customers' suggestions and inputs, how relevant update that would impact drafting and playing strategies would be discussed at length in the forum and how we'd be given time to adjust to the changes.
This update has an important impact on drafting strategies but it wasn't announced at all in notices or release notes. Many players don't follow the forum threads regularly, I can go weeks without checking them, I was lucky that I did this time, before entering leagues with current teams I have sitting in the draft center.
Changes are welcomed, but we, the paying players, should be consulted, our inputs matter, the game has come a long way from what it was when I first joined in 2004 and all important changes had been discussed between devs and players in this forum.
I would have liked to see a vote on this, or that this present discussion happened BEFORE the change was announced.

Posted by adlorenz on 2/22/2021 11:28 AM :

" . . . interest to bring in new users as well, and not to beat in Open Leagues or to prey on for trades, . . "

I like this guy.

And I updated the previous page rambling post with the roster and stats...

aldorenz "Let's have a moment of honesty here: the site without brand new users that stick around WIS will die eventually (probably in the next 3-5 years)."

Alright, I'm all for a moment of honesty.
We all want new users that stick around, that, we can agree on.
To have new users to stick around you need new users... Of those new users, a percentage will stick around.
I can't see how a change like removing AAA players will have much of an effect on new users retention.
What you really need to get new users is advertising WIS.
How did I join WIS in 2004?
WIS was advertising on MLB.COM
That's how a lot of users discovered WIS in the first place.
I can tell you for certain that AAA players were the one thing I least cared about when I began playing this game. It mattered not at all if they existed or not. And as a new player, I did have quite a few losing seasons from which I learned by testing what worked and what didn't, by studying what good owners did. and by reading and discussing in the forums. That a few experienced owners would 'prey' on poor noob me by means of AAA trades was a tiny little bump in the learning process.
So in all honesty, to get new users, it's advertising where it matters that will bring this game a stream of new players and of those, a significant percentage will stick around. WIS isn't perfect but it's still the best sports SIM game I have ever tried and I will surely play it for a long time.
Smart advertising would prove a very sound investment I am sure.
You can have the greatest product on the market, if people don't know it exists, it's a complete waste.
That being said, thanks for caring aldorenz.