Posted by iamjoeyd on 7/13/2021 2:49:00 PM (view original):
I may be the negative Nancy here, but these standards are too complicated and too easy.

Tier 1 teams should make the tournament period.
Tier 1 should have to make 4 NT every 7 seasons.
Tier 1 should not miss the NT in 3 consecutive seasons.
Tier 1 should start with a 5 season contract and must make the NT in season 4 or 5

Tier 2 teams should generally make the tournament.
Tier 2 should have to make 2 NT every 6 seasons and a combined 4 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 2 teams should not miss the NT in 4 consecutive seasons
Tier 2 should start with a 5 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 4 or 5

Tier 3 teams should generally make post season
Tier 3 teams should make 1 NT every 4 seasons and a combined 3 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 3 teams should not miss the NT or PT in 3 consecutive seasons
Tier 3 should start with a 6 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 5 or 6

A contract extension should be given in either season 4 or 5 once the original qualification is made and that season starts the best of 7 season cycle

I agree that these criteria might be a little easier than I'd like, but I think that's the only way to do this. It makes more sense to start easy and then slowly ramp up the guidelines if the firing milestones are not being met.

If you begin with more stringent criteria, you run risk of upsetting too many coaches (the mob is fickle). And then it becomes really difficult to ease those criteria. It would be a real slap in the face to a coach if he loses his job and then the firing guidelines become easier. The next coach gets his job and is much less likely to also be fired.

Another question that I've seen many coaches ask is what happens when you get fired? I'm assuming firings happen right after the NT title game, around the same time when EE's declare? Will there be any restrictions on which jobs you can apply for? Will you still only be able to apply to a maximum of 4 jobs during the job change period?

I guess it makes sense that fired coaches will just lose their team and be in the same situation as a returning coach.

good point there - I would waive the 4 application rule for fired coaches - want to keep them in the game

Posted by iamjoeyd on 7/13/2021 2:49:00 PM (view original):
I may be the negative Nancy here, but these standards are too complicated and too easy.

Tier 1 teams should make the tournament period.
Tier 1 should have to make 4 NT every 7 seasons.
Tier 1 should not miss the NT in 3 consecutive seasons.
Tier 1 should start with a 5 season contract and must make the NT in season 4 or 5

Tier 2 teams should generally make the tournament.
Tier 2 should have to make 2 NT every 6 seasons and a combined 4 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 2 teams should not miss the NT in 4 consecutive seasons
Tier 2 should start with a 5 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 4 or 5

Tier 3 teams should generally make post season
Tier 3 teams should make 1 NT every 4 seasons and a combined 3 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 3 teams should not miss the NT or PT in 3 consecutive seasons
Tier 3 should start with a 6 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 5 or 6

A contract extension should be given in either season 4 or 5 once the original qualification is made and that season starts the best of 7 season cycle

You realize that with your own criteria you would have been fired from your NC State job.

So heres a thought I had about those being fired. (No ab90 jokes about not being able to be fired bc they dont stay long enough to get fired). JUST KIDDING I move around just as much lol. But seriously IF you get fired from a job, what are the consequences about applying for similar jobs?

Like lets say someone with a LOT of d1 success gets fired from Duke. Can they immediately reapply to Duke? Are they "blocked" from Duke but could apply to others?

I ask because lets say a very successful Duke coach runs into a buzzsaw and somehow gets fired, Duke now being up for grabs might attract a lot of people but the long term resume of the fired coach might dwarf any other applicant.

Or are they just blocked from that job and for how long? Lets say They get fired from NC State (lower elite but still pretty good). No one takes the job immediately and so the season after next can they reapply?

Tremendous improvement. I appreciate your ability to absorb all the feedback from the community and handle it well. There is no way to make everyone happy, but I believe this is a great starting point. If there is a desire to make it a bit more strict at some point you can always adjust later.

Posted by Benis on 7/13/2021 7:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by iamjoeyd on 7/13/2021 2:49:00 PM (view original):
I may be the negative Nancy here, but these standards are too complicated and too easy.

Tier 1 teams should make the tournament period.
Tier 1 should have to make 4 NT every 7 seasons.
Tier 1 should not miss the NT in 3 consecutive seasons.
Tier 1 should start with a 5 season contract and must make the NT in season 4 or 5

Tier 2 teams should generally make the tournament.
Tier 2 should have to make 2 NT every 6 seasons and a combined 4 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 2 teams should not miss the NT in 4 consecutive seasons
Tier 2 should start with a 5 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 4 or 5

Tier 3 teams should generally make post season
Tier 3 teams should make 1 NT every 4 seasons and a combined 3 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 3 teams should not miss the NT or PT in 3 consecutive seasons
Tier 3 should start with a 6 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 5 or 6

A contract extension should be given in either season 4 or 5 once the original qualification is made and that season starts the best of 7 season cycle

You realize that with your own criteria you would have been fired from your NC State job.

lol

Sorry I’m new to D1 .. but , I been in D3 and D2 for quit a while it’s kinda hard just to make it to the final four .. let alone win the whole thing I assume it harder in d1 .. I do think after so long you should at least make the sweet 16 but , get fired for not winning to championship or making the final four is kinda high on the mountain.. I like Benis suggestion though

Posted by mlitney on 7/12/2021 4:15:00 PM (view original):
Another suggestion, if it's not too late. Could you count a PIT championship as an NT appearance (1st round exit)? That would give teams another way to meet their goals while making the PIT somewhat exciting. It gives all those PIT teams something to play for. Isn't the PIT championship worth about the same as an NT 1st round exit for prestige calculation?

I agree with you on this one. My belief has been if I win the PIT I should of been in the NT.

I like these new standards much better. If over time it seems to lenient, and too few people are fired you can always make it harder.

I don't think tier 3 teams should be exempt from firings. They should have some kind of standard even if its one appearance every 10 seasons.

Between firings and people not renewing there should be plenty of openings every season.

Under these new standards it would be hard to justify keeping your job if you are fired.

Under the old standards if I got fired I wasn't going too take a job that I was likely too get fired in 4 seasons.

Posted by mlitney on 7/12/2021 4:15:00 PM (view original):
Another suggestion, if it's not too late. Could you count a PIT championship as an NT appearance (1st round exit)? That would give teams another way to meet their goals while making the PIT somewhat exciting. It gives all those PIT teams something to play for. Isn't the PIT championship worth about the same as an NT 1st round exit for prestige calculation?

I think the new system is so much better. It seems really fair and reasonable. I also like the suggestion above. It would not affect the numbers much at all, since only one team per year would achieve this, but a PIT Championship is probably at least equal in value to a 1st round NT exit because you have to win 5 games.

I think this is very very well thought out and fair. I was concerned for myself because I took over Georgia Tech with the idea of trying to coach with zone, which has always been the most difficult defense for me. If I can't achieve these goals in seven years, I deserve to be fired.

And like someone said - may have also been mlitney, after the very first year, there will probably not be that many firings because many of them were kind of overdue.

As far as the change in prestige when a new coach takes over, maybe it could be based on the baseline prestige, but also factoring in the coach success. Soon the case of a D3 coach somehow getting a job at a B Syracuse program and the prestige going up, maybe that does not happen. But if a proven D1 experienced coach with multiple titles comes to Syracuse, then I think that is definitely realistic and appropriate. Or if a proven D1 coach takes over an A+ prestige Delaware State program, it should not go down to a B - otherwise it loses its appeal. I don't think it should go down more than a partial grade in any event because if a mediocre coach takes over an A+ Georgia program, it is likely that before long that program will be back in the B's . But maybe it goes to A.

But GREAT JOB listening and taking suggestions by you guys.

Posted by Benis on 7/13/2021 7:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by iamjoeyd on 7/13/2021 2:49:00 PM (view original):
I may be the negative Nancy here, but these standards are too complicated and too easy.

Tier 1 teams should make the tournament period.
Tier 1 should have to make 4 NT every 7 seasons.
Tier 1 should not miss the NT in 3 consecutive seasons.
Tier 1 should start with a 5 season contract and must make the NT in season 4 or 5

Tier 2 teams should generally make the tournament.
Tier 2 should have to make 2 NT every 6 seasons and a combined 4 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 2 teams should not miss the NT in 4 consecutive seasons
Tier 2 should start with a 5 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 4 or 5

Tier 3 teams should generally make post season
Tier 3 teams should make 1 NT every 4 seasons and a combined 3 NT or PT every 7 seasons
Tier 3 teams should not miss the NT or PT in 3 consecutive seasons
Tier 3 should start with a 6 season contract and must make NT or PT in season 5 or 6

A contract extension should be given in either season 4 or 5 once the original qualification is made and that season starts the best of 7 season cycle

You realize that with your own criteria you would have been fired from your NC State job.

In reality, I would have been fired from NC State after Season 4. I would also have been fired from NC State for my absolutely horrible record against Wake Forest, Duke and Carolina.

NC State's fan base thought Herb Sendek was a horrible coach and forced him out after 5 consecutive trips to the NCAA tournament and 9 postseason trips in 10 seasons.

Some people just can't be satisfied. (they're NC State fans)

what happened to prestige at Hickory when Coach Dale arrived?

Of course just a minor tweak, like not considering Season 1, which is not unreasonable considering late season recruiting options, and I would not have been fired. Also something that perhaps should be addressed is NC State did not have Tier 2 (A-/B+ prestige??) It was a C- program and a coach can hardly be expected to recruit and produce A-/B+ results working from a C- prestige. Perhaps the clock should start once the team re-establishes the proper tier rating with a given number of seasons to achieve that goal.

Since we are now putting coaches on a time schedule, we also need to address transfers. If a coach is fired, some of his roster should transfer and at least one of those transfers should show an immediate VH interest level in his new school. Kids do follow coaches IRL. Kids who lose 10+ WE due to unhappiness under a coach should transfer unless the coach is fired/leaves. That would put higher quality players in 2nd rd recruiting and make rebuilding programs easier. The kid could be recruited back to his original program with promised minutes or guaranteed starts during the coach change period (he enters the transfer portal and later withdraws).

Just some food for thought.

Posted by iamjoeyd on 7/14/2021 10:06:00 AM (view original):
Of course just a minor tweak, like not considering Season 1, which is not unreasonable considering late season recruiting options, and I would not have been fired. Also something that perhaps should be addressed is NC State did not have Tier 2 (A-/B+ prestige??) It was a C- program and a coach can hardly be expected to recruit and produce A-/B+ results working from a C- prestige. Perhaps the clock should start once the team re-establishes the proper tier rating with a given number of seasons to achieve that goal.

Since we are now putting coaches on a time schedule, we also need to address transfers. If a coach is fired, some of his roster should transfer and at least one of those transfers should show an immediate VH interest level in his new school. Kids do follow coaches IRL. Kids who lose 10+ WE due to unhappiness under a coach should transfer unless the coach is fired/leaves. That would put higher quality players in 2nd rd recruiting and make rebuilding programs easier. The kid could be recruited back to his original program with promised minutes or guaranteed starts during the coach change period (he enters the transfer portal and later withdraws).

Just some food for thought.

If you didn't want to include the first season then why not just increase the # of seasons in your proposal by 1? And how many seasons would you allow to get back to your "proper ranking?"

I think your proposal is even more complicated than the one admin just showed us.