Posted by topdogggbm on 6/22/2022 9:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Benis on 6/15/2022 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie on 6/15/2022 9:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/15/2022 7:47:00 AM (view original):
"but the speed, for a non-pressing guard, bh > spd and its probably not super close. "
What do you mean by super close? Can you put a number on that?
I value SPEED as a core for PG (skills) and slightly higher than BH, maybe 10%-20% valuable?
i really meant a non-scoring, non-pressing pg there. not sure what number i would put on it, but basically for me, generally speaking, spd, bh, pass are all top line cores for a scoring, pressing pg. bh and spd both take a hit for non-scoring pgs, and pressing pgs lose value for spd more from there - considerably. by the time you have a non-scoring, non-pressing pg, passing is still super important, perhaps even a clear lone top core at that point. bh is a bit lower, probably kinda like ath/def/bh as a bit below pass, and then spd is a level below that still.
i used to put more numbers on some of this, but its so situational, i tend more to think of thinks as basically top line cores or tier 1 cores, and then basically next level cores, and then lower end cores. which on a scale might translate to 1 or .9 for the top line ones, .7-.8 for the secondary, and .5-.6 or so for the third line ones, perhaps even as low as 0.4? i would say its in the ballpark for a 0 distro non press guard, of 1 pass, .75 bh, .5 spd. maybe even as far as 1, .7, .4. i kind of feel like that is more comfortable actually.
i love speed in guards, but i love to press and take 3s and that is where most of the speed value derives from. in today's ath/def paradigm (that started 10 years ago), speed is just not that important defensively, even on the perimeter. speed is also useful for 2pta for sure.
I thought speed was more important than ath for guards in zone?
Mentally/Visually that sounds right. But to my knowledge that is extremely incorrect. Press wins with TOs, to get those TOs you want high SPD/ST guys. The main contributor in steals.
In zone, you don't get hardly any steals or TOs. You force opposing players to pass to the soft spot in the zone. The offense shoots more jump shots over the zone or in the open area of the floor. They don't penetrate or drive and kick. So for zone, I've found speed to be the most worthless when having high ratings. And ATH/DEF/REB is key.
It makes sense in the mind, that, say a 2-3, you'd think that you'd want high speed guards, because they have to cover a lot more ground. But that hasn't seemed to be relevant in my experience. Since it's really just math equations and not floor spacing.
agreed. i have shared this conjecture before, but my understanding of the sim engine - based on experience, not that old write up etc. - there is nowhere in the engine that the speed of a guard on one team is directly compared against a guard on the other (nor for the entire back court or team). its possible it happens somewhere, but i'd be hard pressed to imagine where that would be. i suspect if it happens, it is some fairly trivial matter or a small part of a much bigger whole.
guard speed was basically my calling card for like, most of my existence. but that is purely because speed is so valuable in 1) press turnover generation, and 2) 3pt scoring, which are the basketball abilities the large majority of my teams in 1.0 and 2.0 were built around.
i remember coaching a team with storm back towards the end of 2.0, we had a florida state program running man, i think motion/man. it was a surprisingly difficult recruiting situation, but i remember we were recruiting this one like, listed SF, for a PG spot or something. or at least considering him. i basically was like this is our guy, and storm was like, but he's slow. and i was like - so what? granted, i think he was like 70 speed, maybe even 75, but this was late 2.0 when 10 teams ran around each season with 850 overall squads.
it was a pretty interesting exchange, because he's like - because speed is really important for guards! i was like sure, you know, as platitudes go, its valid. now give me one reason why his speed holds him back in any way! he was kinda taken back because we'd coached in conferences together (never co-coaching except that 1 team for its 7 seasons or whatever), and guard speed is something i talked about a lot. those days my co-coaching was sort of mentoring on steroids, so i really pushed other coaches to make decisions and be accountable, and i really pushed him like, tell me in basketball terms, what is he not good enough at? he's a 2pt scoring point guard in motion/man. where is his low 70s speed not acceptable? he had 95 ath/def or ballpark, and i presume projected out to at least 90/90 bh/pass or so.
the bottom line is, you need a tangible basketball-based reason to value a rating or ability. while i value speed immensely in many of my pgs, the pressing, 20 ppg, 3pt scoring pgs who bring more value to a team than any player in any role in any system... that doesn't mean i value it greatly in my 2pt scoring, non-pressing pgs.
while i love the exercise of trying to assign values to the ratings, the bottom line is no simple formula is ever going to come close to capturing the complexity of the challenge. like the player roles in game. those are fine, but if you want to compete with the best, you absolutely have to differentiate in a major way when you evaluate a player for a position, based on the actual role he is going to play. and how can you possibly do that, in recruiting, with no idea what role he's going to play? this is why team building looking 2-3 seasons out, trying to understand the role your recruit will play as a junior, before you put a dollar on him, is so valuable.
6/23/2022 12:28 AM (edited)