Are modern players better? Topic

savoybg
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Are modern players being made better in the sim than older players with the same objective numbers?

I got a guy telling me that 21-22 Haliburton is much better in the sim than 1976 Buse and 1970 Roger A. Brown, 2 all stars who made all league teams. Haliburton's salary is about a million to a million and a half lower than the other 2 players as he can only play 33 minutes a game while Buse can play 40 and Brown can play 43. Haliburton's win shares per 48 minutes are just .125. Buse is .150 and Brown is .183, but this guy insists that Haliburton is much better in the sim, he says "it's not even close."

So what's the story here? Is this guy right, and is this happening because they just make modern players better out of hand?





7/28/2022 8:56 PM
savoybg
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Buse gets twice the steals and turns it over 1/3 less often. Haliburton a little better rebounder. Haliburton about 17% more assists per 48. Haliburton better eFG. I think the steals and the turnovers and better defense cerytianly negate the assists and most of the eFG. Even if Haliburton is slightly better per minute overall, he is only able to play 18% fewer minutes than Buse. I think 40 minutes of Buse are gonna be better on my team than 33 minutes of Halburton. I only have 8 minutes of backups at PG.
7/28/2022 10:31 PM
rebel
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Related question: Do players who played before the 3 point era but were great long range shooters get coded to have a good 3 point percentage?
7/29/2022 3:43 PM
savoybg
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Posted by rebel on 7/29/2022 3:43:00 PM (view original):
Related question: Do players who played before the 3 point era but were great long range shooters get coded to have a good 3 point percentage?
No, because there's no way to know who were great long range shooters from the stats available. I'll tell you this, Jerry Lucas on the early 70s Knicks regularly made 30 foot set shots. They seam to make all old timers who were outside shooters between 30% and 35% on threes, but none of them take all that many threes like guys from this century do.
7/29/2022 3:56 PM
savoybg
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The ABA had threes in the 70s before the NBA did, so they do have stats on those guys, but not for the NBA until the 79-80 season.
7/29/2022 3:57 PM
PBandJ
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Posted by savoybg on 7/28/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Are modern players being made better in the sim than older players with the same objective numbers?

I got a guy telling me that 21-22 Haliburton is much better in the sim than 1976 Buse and 1970 Roger A. Brown, 2 all stars who made all league teams. Haliburton's salary is about a million to a million and a half lower than the other 2 players as he can only play 33 minutes a game while Buse can play 40 and Brown can play 43. Haliburton's win shares per 48 minutes are just .125. Buse is .150 and Brown is .183, but this guy insists that Haliburton is much better in the sim, he says "it's not even close."

So what's the story here? Is this guy right, and is this happening because they just make modern players better out of hand?





Buse's salary bump comes from the number of minutes he played along with the steals average/steals%.

Understanding the things the sim values in salary vs. performance is huge. In performance term, efg% and usg% are huge bumps to the sim. However salary dictates that a player the plays more minutes will have a bigger salary, all other things being equal. Additionally, the salary part also views usage rate. So taking a player with a higher salary doesn't mean that you selected the better player. You can get 3600+ minutes of Gerald Govan for $7.2M, or you can have 2200 minutes of Shaq for $6M. Which would you rather have?

When building that team with Indiana, the 21-22 Halliburton is better for building around because he is one tier higher for usage rate and he eFG% is solid with much better Ast% numbers. Additionally, he is close to Buse defensively and shoots so much better. If I was going to take a Pacer PG it would be either 21-22 Haliburton or 96-97 Mark Jackson. Jackson keeps the usage low and has a 42% assist rate at over 3000 minutes. You really need to have enough assists to boost your FG%. That is also why I said I would put Sabonis in the lineup as well. His assists and rebounds with usage and high eFG% at his position is a nice luxury for a team that does not have near enough luxuries.

The lineup I considered was:
Haliburton
Miller
George
Sabonis
Daniels
7/29/2022 4:18 PM
savoybg
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Posted by PBandJ on 7/29/2022 4:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 7/28/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Are modern players being made better in the sim than older players with the same objective numbers?

I got a guy telling me that 21-22 Haliburton is much better in the sim than 1976 Buse and 1970 Roger A. Brown, 2 all stars who made all league teams. Haliburton's salary is about a million to a million and a half lower than the other 2 players as he can only play 33 minutes a game while Buse can play 40 and Brown can play 43. Haliburton's win shares per 48 minutes are just .125. Buse is .150 and Brown is .183, but this guy insists that Haliburton is much better in the sim, he says "it's not even close."

So what's the story here? Is this guy right, and is this happening because they just make modern players better out of hand?





Buse's salary bump comes from the number of minutes he played along with the steals average/steals%.

Understanding the things the sim values in salary vs. performance is huge. In performance term, efg% and usg% are huge bumps to the sim. However salary dictates that a player the plays more minutes will have a bigger salary, all other things being equal. Additionally, the salary part also views usage rate. So taking a player with a higher salary doesn't mean that you selected the better player. You can get 3600+ minutes of Gerald Govan for $7.2M, or you can have 2200 minutes of Shaq for $6M. Which would you rather have?

When building that team with Indiana, the 21-22 Halliburton is better for building around because he is one tier higher for usage rate and he eFG% is solid with much better Ast% numbers. Additionally, he is close to Buse defensively and shoots so much better. If I was going to take a Pacer PG it would be either 21-22 Haliburton or 96-97 Mark Jackson. Jackson keeps the usage low and has a 42% assist rate at over 3000 minutes. You really need to have enough assists to boost your FG%. That is also why I said I would put Sabonis in the lineup as well. His assists and rebounds with usage and high eFG% at his position is a nice luxury for a team that does not have near enough luxuries.

The lineup I considered was:
Haliburton
Miller
George
Sabonis
Daniels
I didn't want Miller's defense. I have more than enough (team) usage as it is, so I want Buse's lower usage. And what about Buse's much better steal and turnover rates? I think that at least negates Haliburton's extra assists per minute if not part of the eFG too. Also, I don't have enough money to cover the extra 7 backup minutes that I would need with Haliburton. I have exactly 8 backup minutes at PG with Buse playing 40 minutes there.

So it comes down to 40 minutes of Buse with 8 minutes of scrubs backing up, or 33 minutes of Haliburton with 15 minutes of scrubs backing up. Whatever slight better play per minute you may get from Haliburton is lost when you have to fill 7 more minutes of **** backup play at PG. Buse plays 21% more minutes han Haliburton, which is huge.
7/29/2022 4:58 PM
copernicus
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hi new guys and welcome - listen to ash and ben

this guy has been to one playoff series - take what he is saying with a giant grain of salt
7/29/2022 5:27 PM
savoybg
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Posted by copernicus on 7/29/2022 5:27:00 PM (view original):
hi new guys and welcome - listen to ash and ben

this guy has been to one playoff series - take what he is saying with a giant grain of salt
That could be 2 playoff series after tonight's game 6 of the series.
7/29/2022 6:02 PM
copernicus
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assist exploit wins because EFG - no more exploit but still EFG ---> modern players with 3pm = EFG

thank you, good night!!!!
7/29/2022 9:28 PM
PBandJ
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Posted by savoybg on 7/29/2022 4:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by PBandJ on 7/29/2022 4:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 7/28/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Are modern players being made better in the sim than older players with the same objective numbers?

I got a guy telling me that 21-22 Haliburton is much better in the sim than 1976 Buse and 1970 Roger A. Brown, 2 all stars who made all league teams. Haliburton's salary is about a million to a million and a half lower than the other 2 players as he can only play 33 minutes a game while Buse can play 40 and Brown can play 43. Haliburton's win shares per 48 minutes are just .125. Buse is .150 and Brown is .183, but this guy insists that Haliburton is much better in the sim, he says "it's not even close."

So what's the story here? Is this guy right, and is this happening because they just make modern players better out of hand?





Buse's salary bump comes from the number of minutes he played along with the steals average/steals%.

Understanding the things the sim values in salary vs. performance is huge. In performance term, efg% and usg% are huge bumps to the sim. However salary dictates that a player the plays more minutes will have a bigger salary, all other things being equal. Additionally, the salary part also views usage rate. So taking a player with a higher salary doesn't mean that you selected the better player. You can get 3600+ minutes of Gerald Govan for $7.2M, or you can have 2200 minutes of Shaq for $6M. Which would you rather have?

When building that team with Indiana, the 21-22 Halliburton is better for building around because he is one tier higher for usage rate and he eFG% is solid with much better Ast% numbers. Additionally, he is close to Buse defensively and shoots so much better. If I was going to take a Pacer PG it would be either 21-22 Haliburton or 96-97 Mark Jackson. Jackson keeps the usage low and has a 42% assist rate at over 3000 minutes. You really need to have enough assists to boost your FG%. That is also why I said I would put Sabonis in the lineup as well. His assists and rebounds with usage and high eFG% at his position is a nice luxury for a team that does not have near enough luxuries.

The lineup I considered was:
Haliburton
Miller
George
Sabonis
Daniels
I didn't want Miller's defense. I have more than enough (team) usage as it is, so I want Buse's lower usage. And what about Buse's much better steal and turnover rates? I think that at least negates Haliburton's extra assists per minute if not part of the eFG too. Also, I don't have enough money to cover the extra 7 backup minutes that I would need with Haliburton. I have exactly 8 backup minutes at PG with Buse playing 40 minutes there.

So it comes down to 40 minutes of Buse with 8 minutes of scrubs backing up, or 33 minutes of Haliburton with 15 minutes of scrubs backing up. Whatever slight better play per minute you may get from Haliburton is lost when you have to fill 7 more minutes of **** backup play at PG. Buse plays 21% more minutes han Haliburton, which is huge.
1. You overvalue defense. The sim has far too much randomness within to base a lot on defense.
2. Buse plays more minutes, but at what value? what he gives you doesn't move the needle. The steal and turnover rates do not negate the higher eFG%.
3. I played with this team and ended up with 20000+ minutes that allowed me to play non scrubs. Scrubs only existed for clean up minutes.

I know by looking at my profile I am just a noob, but I have two other profiles that were HoF and one of them played in virtually every league. I am just giving you some honest advice. You need to focus on what players allow you to terminate possessions with positive results. High eFG% and high Ast% can almost assure you of making the most of this opportunity. While turnovers are important you have to ask yourself about the trade off between scoring and turning the ball over. You can't be so deep into protecting the ball that you forget the need to put in players that will pressure defenses by scoring.
7/30/2022 6:52 PM
ashamael
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Yes, modern players are better. At least in the sim they are, and it's getting worse & worse every season as the rule changes have allowed for some crazy statistical surges. It may suck, but it is reality. Either accept it & incorporate it, or bang your head on a desk insisting that you know better than people who, in fact, know what the heck they're talking about.
8/1/2022 7:22 PM
savoybg
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Posted by ashamael on 8/1/2022 7:22:00 PM (view original):
Yes, modern players are better. At least in the sim they are, and it's getting worse & worse every season as the rule changes have allowed for some crazy statistical surges. It may suck, but it is reality. Either accept it & incorporate it, or bang your head on a desk insisting that you know better than people who, in fact, know what the heck they're talking about.
I prefer to play in era leagues like the 70s League I just finished. I haven't paid hardly any attention to the last 20 years of the NBA. Never even heard of lots of really good players. I did the same in baseball sims with eras. Mainly ran decade leagues, and there's a lot more decades to play in baseball. I clobbered everybody in the 19th Century League, 1900s League, and the 1910s League. The other owners did not grasp all of the errors that would be made in those games, without all of the home runs. I drafted a team of the lowest error rates at each position in the 19th Century League and made like 150 fewer errors than the second best team. Teams in the 19th century league averaged 3-4 errors per game. Some SS and 2Bman were making 90-100 errors in a 132 game season
8/1/2022 9:18 PM
Are modern players better? Topic
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