Posted by cimmy426 on 11/5/2022 10:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by calman877 on 11/5/2022 7:20:00 AM (view original):
"Is it really my job to keep following up with them just in case the game isn't working as intended? Even if they provide no indication to me that they were suspicious that might be happening here?"
May not like this answer, but yeah, it kinda is. This game works because of a great user base more than great CS. The top HD players undoubtedly know more about what's going on in the game than a CS rep picking up a ticket does. CS can certainly answer a question in a very literal sense, they can see what an action does to the game, but they don't get the context or ramifications behind it like someone who's been playing daily for years. Users have a long history of reporting bugs in this game, keeps it working well.
When 1% of users are aware of a useful action and 99% of users are not, whether or not it's intended to be there, that's a problem. I believe you didn't know you were such a minority in knowing about this, so I think it's an honest mistake, but yeah, I think in situations like that it is on the user to keep bringing it up. That or poke around a bit and see if anyone else has mentioned it, maybe more people know about it.
If it's something that's decently well known like offering starts/minutes to ineligibles then I think that's fair game, it becomes part of the game meta. This clearly was not well known, and whether that's fair to you or not, that's the difference. It's on you to make sure CS understands what it does and/or make sure the broader community is aware of it.

A lot of vitriol around here for what boils down to "you should have reported this more than once.". And I had no idea how few people knew you could do this. But now I'm just repeating myself.

for what its worth, having the long history of playing this game and seeing the edge case advantages folks have found and used without consequence - even encouragement - i don't think you guys were very far off the ranch. i think you guys got mob justice and that sucks. and i definitely don't think the hatred and rage is called for or productive.

question for you. did you ever redshirt, no-redshirt a recruit twice? or was this always once per recruit? did you ever experiment with the mechanic to see what happened if you tried to apply it multiple times?

Yes, mentioning it to the HD community once would have been enough, you’re right.

They didn’t mention it.

Why?

Throwing my unneeded two cents in here:

cimmy is the one who contacted CS. He got the response about following up. Even if you assume the worst of him, when he goes and tells other people, he doesn’t say to them, “I got told to follow up but I’m not going to.” He tells them about it, and they start doing it. Clearly, cimmy misunderstood the response from CS and maybe didn’t even read it super closely. You can tell by how quickly he shared the email. He thought that would exonerate him. He could have not shared the email, said he lost it, and said CS told him it was OK. He didn’t. So he thought it would clear his name. And everyone else that did it (in his family) probably never saw the email. They just heard cimmy say what it said and then followed the exploit.

This whole thing has turned me off a little bit. I mean- if I did something accidentally, I understand being punished, but not being yelled at over and over. And over and over. I mean- I have read these forums regularly since I started here in March, and have heard some weird things, but there’s stuff here that I am just learning about during this. Like I think I read you don’t even have to keep promises 80% of the time the other day, but only for one six-seven game stretch. Maybe I misread that. But still- shocking if true. Also, I’ll probably never use that- because it feels like a ridiculous exploit that shouldn’t be there. Much like many people feel about this.

I’m fine with the punishment. There should be punishment. These guys should stop defending themselves at this point. It just makes them look worse, in my opinion. But there shouldn’t be a permanent ban or anything. That’s over the top.

Not that you needed my opinion, and now I’ll get yelled at by all of you probably, but there it is.

FYI- as a newbie who has not competed against them, I understand fully my opinion counts less:

one more question for cimmy and perhaps doogan if he is still around. in case you guys didn't follow that first thread, this is coming from one of the few folks who never wielded a pitchfork...

here's where i struggle with some of this. if a relatively newer, less successful coach had used this mechanic 10 times, i would struggle to see them receive any punishment at all. however, i can't imagine myself using this, it would be clear to me pretty early in the process that it was unfair and needed to be reported. i suppose several reasons for that. first, when you take this idea to its logical conclusion, it is clearly a big deal. 24 recruits unlocked in 5 cycles by the dude in benis's OP, that is clearly a big deal. second, i would look around and note that other coaches were not using this. i guess really, those two are enough, but as a higher end coach, i also feel a significantly higher burden than i expect to be imposed on the average coach, to play fair.

you guys are successful enough, and have been around long enough, that my expectations for you are higher than an average coach and certainly higher than a newer coach. where i struggle is, did you know, and should you have known, items #1 and #2 above?

for me, having awareness of the way this game goes, of the way games go in general, that there have been serious recruiting exploits found in the past and that they will be found in the future, item #1, taking this to its logical conclusion, would be a no-brainer. someone a fifth as informed as me, i would generally expect that from them, too. but i do get that there is a fundamental lack of awareness around the nature of games and exploits in the larger community, where really successful coaches may have pretty damn little awareness. for me, i would expect a serious punishment for using this redshirt-noredshirt without reporting, because i either would have known or should have known it was unfair.

its impossible to see inside your head, but you guys have been here long enough, and have been successful enough, its hard to get to 'clearly, they didn't know and shouldn't have known'. which, with the higher standard that should be applied to higher end coaches, is really where i think we'd need to get, to say this is a 100% above board set of actions. did you guys seriously never look around and notice nobody else was using it? the idea that maybe 25% of the community could be using it, i find that to be a real stretch. did you never think about how serious this could be abused? it seems hard to imagine none of you would have thought about that. feels a bit like ignorance by choice?

anyway, that is my general way of thinking. i don't feel like this is cheating at all for a newer coach who doesn't know what's up. and in your guys defense, none of you are on the forums all that much, it would be a lot worse in my eyes, if you guys had been regular participants in fair play discussions. but still, where i struggle with your guys claim of doing nothing wrong is, you guys are smart guys, successful coaches who have been here a long time... that calls for a higher standard, and it just doesn't feel met. i could honestly believe that you guys just didn't really think about this very much and generally lacked bad intentions. but i do think there's a bit of a burden on you all to have done so, and that you guys generally failed to meet that burden.

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/5/2022 10:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by calman877 on 11/5/2022 7:20:00 AM (view original):
"Is it really my job to keep following up with them just in case the game isn't working as intended? Even if they provide no indication to me that they were suspicious that might be happening here?"
May not like this answer, but yeah, it kinda is. This game works because of a great user base more than great CS. The top HD players undoubtedly know more about what's going on in the game than a CS rep picking up a ticket does. CS can certainly answer a question in a very literal sense, they can see what an action does to the game, but they don't get the context or ramifications behind it like someone who's been playing daily for years. Users have a long history of reporting bugs in this game, keeps it working well.
When 1% of users are aware of a useful action and 99% of users are not, whether or not it's intended to be there, that's a problem. I believe you didn't know you were such a minority in knowing about this, so I think it's an honest mistake, but yeah, I think in situations like that it is on the user to keep bringing it up. That or poke around a bit and see if anyone else has mentioned it, maybe more people know about it.
If it's something that's decently well known like offering starts/minutes to ineligibles then I think that's fair game, it becomes part of the game meta. This clearly was not well known, and whether that's fair to you or not, that's the difference. It's on you to make sure CS understands what it does and/or make sure the broader community is aware of it.

A lot of vitriol around here for what boils down to "you should have reported this more than once.". And I had no idea how few people knew you could do this. But now I'm just repeating myself.

No vitriol here, like I said, "I believe you didn't know you were such a minority in knowing about this, so I think it's an honest mistake"

You actually took the step to reach out CS and that's commendable. I'm just answering your question, you asked if it's your job to keep following up and I personally think it is, or if something similar happens to someone else in the future, it would be their responsibility as well.

If we want the game to be good and fair that takes buy in from the users along with CS, who probably don't have the best understanding of ramifications of different actions. I get why you didn't follow up, just saying I think you should have, or made a post about it or something.

But really, no hard feelings here, it's a fun game and I hope you guys can still enjoy it

And, to answer a few questions that have been thrown out there (some of which were addressed, in part, in my original post that basketts posted on Page 2 of this forum):

-I never, ever used it in D2 after doing it one season and it totally backfiring. So, all the rivalries and whatever I built in my D2 conferences were done with no undue advantage due to this tactic

-No, we don't know swenske. Don't know what he was doing or why he used it so much.

-No, none of us ever even tried to use it on a recruit more than once. Didn't even consider it. Which I might argue is a pretty good argument towards the fact that we didn't think we uncovered a "cheat" or a "trick," but I'll leave you all to evaluate that as you wish. But, no, never even considered using it on someone twice

-Similarly, I never (and, I presume none of the others I know) used it on someone I didn't have any intention of signing. Again, never considered it because I wasn't trying to game the system or anything. Was it a good test to see how much into a recruit someone was? Sure. But, I wasn't trying to mess with people or targeting people individually

Again, just trying to be open and accountable here

wow

faced swenske's Wake Forest in Naismith ACC for a long time. Was often puzzled at how Wake could come up into the DMV so effectively - said to myself - how can he be on these guys. Now makes sense

And will pat myself on the back for being a game or two below .500 against swenske's Wake with my Terps - while just cluelessly doing what I think is normal recruiting.

Posted by robinhood410 on 11/6/2022 8:05:00 PM (view original):

Hello everyone, please take my words with respect and sincerity. Other than that, I ask nothing of you. I did make a post to discord when this first broke, and basketts kindly posted that for me (you can find that on page 2 of this thread). If you are understandably tired of talking about this issue or belligerantly “just want us to go away,” then I encourage you to, ya know, maybe just not read this forum or simply ignore my post. No one is making you read anything. But, if you would like to publicly state an opinion about who you think I am or what you believe my intentions were, please at least have the respect to read my words first, even if you choose not to believe them.

I figured I should probably drop at least one post here since I haven’t personally said anything in this forum. First of all, I have a world of respect for this community and its users and am sorry for anything I've done that might create questions of integrity of the game, itself, or any other users. I've always treated this game as an honest and fun competition, and independent of my "ban," I really hope that anything I did directly or indirectly caused people to doubt the honesty of anyone else on this site or lose interest in the game.

As I said in my original post, I am very sorry for how this all played out. I understand the anger, and I understand the frustration. I feel very bad that this entire community of which I have been a respected part for 18 years now legitimately questions my integrity and that a very vocal group feels that this is unforgivable. That is a fair belief, and I respect those that have it. There is nothing I can do to undo what I have done, and if you believe that there is no possible context that could make those actions understandable, then I respect that, and I accept that.

I will not restate all of the background that went into all of this. I have explained myself clearly on the post on page 2. I have tried to be fully accountable for my actions, and please know that my stated contrition is entirely sincere. I know that I have been fully honest, candid, and open in my explanations, and I have a ton of respect for those that have responded as such, regardless of where you fall on the issue. I am glad that there are enough people – even with very differing opinions – that have respect for the other side to engage in a mature, open conversation. I do see how this could have provided a significant advantage, particularly if there were only a handful of people who knew about, but please understand none of us thought we were cheating any of you. Believe it if you want. Don't believe it if you want. All I have is my word, and I'm offering that. We would not have done it if that were the case.

Again, I am not going to recount what I said in the first post, so please take this for having established (I hope) a high level of contrition and accountability. I am not here to change anyone’s mind, and I am not here in any attempt to escape punishment. What’s done is done, and I have moved on.

I do want to make sure, though, that this situation brings an education to those that play and especially to those that administer these games. It doesn’t matter what you believe I (or any of the others here) actually did in this case or how you envision our motives when we did it. Please ask yourself this – honestly:

Do you believe that there are committed WIS players out there who are engaged and positive but do not visit the forums or other discord-like channels very often and don’t even really think of that kind of more intense interaction as a necessary part of enjoying the game? No one reading this probably falls into this category, but do you believe that these people exist and are positive, important members of this community?

Is it possible for some of those people to discover a recruiting action that might have been unintended?

Then what if those people immediately submitted a report to CS and receive – at best – an ambiguous response? Could they take this as "we're on it?" Again, just talking a feasible possibility – please think beyond whatever you believe about this specific case or what "you would do." Just is this feasible?

And, since these users never go to forums or anything anyway, is it possible that they might not realize how unknown this was?

What if these users have seen and noticed plenty of other things that seemed "off" in the past – some of which were quietly fixed without any hoopla (e.g. promises to inelgibles) or others that continue to be a regular, possibly accepted part of the game (e.g. getting double the money and APs just for redshirting a SR)? And, that these "tricks" or "bugs" were often very widely known by some, but not all users, and were never considered by anyone to be cheating?

Now, (and, again, and I’m sorry to keep saying this, but please think beyond this specific situation) please honestly consider whether all those things could have possibly happened to an innocent user or group of innocent users?

Well, regardless of what you believe, the fact is that the mob mentality got way out ahead of any facts here. No one knew what the “cheat” was, and everyone assumed it was egregious (and, to many of you, it may have turned out to be, which is fine, but there were many opinions formed and, possibly cemented, before anyone knew anything about it). Then, people railed against the previous CS and how they were asleep at the wheel many times (to me, a fair criticism of the previous regime). So, this new regime acted. They acted quickly and HARSHLY. And, the mob LOVED it. They got heaped with praise and praise and more praise. They got attaboys and love because the mob got their pound of flesh and was happy about it. But, this pound of flesh came from a group of long-time, respected users and was taken without any attempt to talk to them before a suspension and then took their WIS lives with nothing more than a half-hearted attempt of any benefit of the doubt. Maybe they deserved it, you might say. But, deserved it without the ability to answer for the accusations? All in an attempt to appease an angry mob…and, it worked. The most vocal contingent is happy, so I guess that’s all that matters. The only thing that was lost here were the accounts of a couple long-time users who spent upwards of 18 years building their programs (some of which - any non-D1 program and any program before they stumbled upon this). Whatever. Maybe they deserved it. But, none of you really know, for sure, and the sad part is that CS doesn’t know either because they never took the time to even talk to us or give any benefit of the doubt, which I believe, in any fair societal construct, should be afforded to everyone.

Please don’t take this as us trying to be martyrs or anything. And, before all the wolves come and say "there they go, making excuses" or screaming about everyone's favorite fancy word "whataboutism," please know that I've already posted a sincere apology and nothing in this post counters anything I've said before. I just wanted to use this as a warning for the quick, severe "justice" that came down here. There is a slippery slope about all this stuff.

All we are were people who enjoyed WIS and got booted for something that was done with regular recruiting actions and was immediately reported to CS (we know that we never thought what we were doing was cheating, but that can be proven to anyone...so, say what you will about motive or intent, but the FACTS of it being a regularly available action and that we reported it immediately are indisputable). So, be careful in the future with (a) what strategies you decide to use in recruiting and (b) what conclusions the forums may come to before any facts or any evaluation of the explanations of those accused. I believe there was an injustice here, and many of you don’t. That is fine, reasonable minds can disagree. But, I think it would intellectually dishonest to say that there is no chance that a process like this could have led to the most severe possible punishment being handed down to people who clearly did not deserve the death penalty.

I wish you all the best in the future, and I will miss a whole lot of you more than you know.

I am accountable and present, so please, if you have anything to say to me personally, send me a sitemail. I will answer any question and I will read any comments – good or bad – so if you just want me to hear your support or your outrage, I respect and appreciate any of it.

With all respect and sincerity,
Bryan (robinhood410)

First and foremost, again, I believe that you guys didn't know how few coaches knew of this move, believe it was an honest mistake, and as a fellow Philly guy, bummer about the Phils. That said, these two lines of thought are incongruous:

"Do you believe that there are committed WIS players out there who are engaged and positive but do not visit the forums or other discord-like channels very often and don’t even really think of that kind of more intense interaction as a necessary part of enjoying the game? No one reading this probably falls into this category, but do you believe that these people exist and are positive, important members of this community?

And, since these users never go to forums or anything anyway, is it possible that they might not realize how unknown this was?"

"What if these users have seen and noticed plenty of other things that seemed "off" in the past – some of which were quietly fixed without any hoopla (e.g. promises to inelgibles) or others that continue to be a regular, possibly accepted part of the game (e.g. getting double the money and APs just for redshirting a SR)? And, that these "tricks" or "bugs" were often very widely known by some, but not all users, and were never considered by anyone to be cheating?"

Either you're on the forums/discord often enough to notice things like the promises to ineligibles or APs for redshirting seniors, or you're not. I don't get saying we're not on the forums but we noticed plenty of other things on the forums that were widely known that were never considered cheating. In two separate places you're implying you see nothing from the forums and later that you've seen a lot from the forums, doesn't make sense to me.

That’s a fair question, calman. We discovered the ineligible thing the same way we discover anything. Trial and error. I offered an ineligible minutes one time never thinking I wouldn’t have to honor it. But then it never came up, he stayed ineligible and then I never had to honor it. So, I did that more often (never too much because I was afraid that they’d become eligible in the interim). Thought it was a viable strategy. Then, all of a sudden a couple months ago, I had an ineligible guy entering his SO year with promises and I though “oh wow, they must have changed that…interesting. I’ll rethink my strategy.”

Same thing with redshirting a SR. I did it once because it made sense and I realized “wait a second, I didn’t lose APs or $$$? Interesting. Maybe this could be a strategy.” Again, not a way to cheat or game the system, but just kind of figuring out what various actions would do and then playing the game. Not looking for loopholes in any way, but also trusting that WIS knew what they were doing.

I know it sounds weird to everyone who frequents the forums, but we never did (all of my 50 posts or whatever was trying to recruit for HBD when I was commissioner - and I didn’t know what discord even was until a week ago). It sounds like a lame excuse, but I honestly considered myself just a simple user. I don’t do coding. I wouldn’t know the first thing about how to program this game, so I just try to figure out how to play by seeing what works and what doesn’t and assume that the people “making the rules” will change things that are wrong. If something was egregious or seemed blatantly off, I’d mention something - like we did here and got a “yes, it appears you do get credit for it.”

Again, not trying to make excuses. I see now, through this whole thing, that we probably should have been more proactive - even a second or third time - but I can honestly say that that’s just not how I was thinking. I think it’s dumb in monopoly that the person who bankrupts someone gets all their properties just because they happen to be the last one to knock them out, but I’ve never thought about writing to Parker Brothers telling them the rules are wrong. Not an excuse here, I get it. Just trying to explain my thought process

I have started to post, deleted the post, and gone round and round with that many times now. I think I could write a novel at this point haha. I will jump to the conclusion for those that don't wish to read my post even though I am going to attempt to summarize my thoughts.

The punishment is too harsh. There you have it. It's too harsh. That's my opinion after a lot of reflection on what happened.

I’m nearly 52 years old, playing an online basketball simulation game where I don’t know anyone and somehow this became very personal. Robinhood unknowingly became my MAIN mentor. I studied lots of coaches box scores as I learned but he was the guy. So, so good at the game. I wanted to learn directly so I joined D2 Heartland Crum to go head-to-head at least twice a year and see firsthand what he did and didn’t do so I could get better. Spent 43 seasons there…joined D1 Naismith SEC a little later and was in season 26 with him there. I've enjoyed playing with and against RH tremendously.

The original post subject line stated - ‘cheater confirmed!’. Many, if not most of us (including myself), did immediately think the worst. I posted in the other thread that I simply despise thieves and cheaters. My mind quickly went to ‘how did the cheat?’. Did they use some weird browser trick to apply extra AP? Did they hack the servers somehow to get extra AP or a recruiting advantage in some other way? What’s going on here? Once I found out what it was, I would say that the users didn’t CHEAT. However, they did violate the fair play guidelines. They exploited a loophole (or unintentional benefit by the game designers) to give themselves an unfair advantage. By lack of thought and/or poor coding the design was wrong. No, not their fault that the issue existed but they took advantage of it and knew they were gaining an advantage. How do I know? One thing keeps coming back to me over and over while thinking about what they did…they kept a screenshot of their interaction with CS on the ticket they opened. So, they thought, if I ever get in questioned about using this advantage, I can prove that CS said it was OK. For me that tells me that you know it’s sketchy to say the least and you need this documented. I think in your hearts you had to know it wasn’t intended and you all knew it…the whole time. Also, for me, the interaction didn’t say it was Ok. It said the exact opposite. It said, yes, I think their may be a problem here – report it to me if you see it again so we can investigate.

Let’s be very, very clear. This was a MASSIVE advantage. MASSIVE. If you disagree, then you haven’t attempted to recruit directly against or in the vicinity of someone with this advantage. I also played 14 seasons in A10 Smith with all these guys and was astounded by the talent they pulled in year after year after year. I finally actually gave up and completely retired from that world thinking they were way better than me, specifically at recruiting and I would never be able to compete. If you disagree, then you haven’t spent enough time considering all the angles and ripple effects this had on others in recruiting.

The previous CS was extremely lazy. I’m certain they could have investigated and tested this on their own without it being reported again.

Yes, the thought that informing a recruit that they wouldn’t be redshirted giving benefit makes 100% sense; However, it doesn’t make any sense that to get that benefit you have to tell the recruit you plan to redshirt them in the first place. Since that was the case, it should have only reversed the original negative and placed the recruit back to ‘zero’ from those two actions. To use this process over and over on recruits once discovered was simply wrong. You weren’t planning to redshirt them then changing your mind later during recruiting. It was to gain an advantage in recruiting. Pure and simple. AND YOU KNEW IT was a major advantage. I’ll never believe otherwise. Churning out top recruiting classes after top recruiting classes literally littered with 4 and 5 star recruits while watching others struggle to sign players of that caliber at times.

I don’t frequent the forums. I’ve learned about several other things that seem like they may need to be addressed moving forward. However, to deflect and try to point attention to other issues is not the path to follow. I never allowed my children to take this defense or my employees for that matter (Yes, grown people start pointing fingers in every other direction trying to get out of trouble). I’m always disappointed when this approach is the first line of defense. We are here to talk about THIS issue and whether it was wrong or not and what, if any, punishment should be handed out if it is deemed wrong.

I don’t know anything about swenske. The others, are all very good coaches and certainly seem to be concerned about the game and the community to some degree (especially RH). However, in my opinion, there should be consequences for their actions and violating the fair play guidelines and I absolutely support that happening. I just think that the stripping of all accomplishments was a little too harsh.

Thanks for the post snewell, to be honest, you were one of the people I wanted to hear from most because we have competed against each other for so long and you are one of the people I felt closest to on the site. I didn’t know that you felt of me as a me mentor as I felt that way about you as well. I probably learned as much from you and you did from me. I’m very sorry I let you down.

I’m sure it’s no consolation, and I TOTALLY respect how you feel, but I never once used this tactic in D2, which is where I enjoyed this game the most and had a lot of my favorite rivalries.

Also, I know it sounds like deflection to bring up other things, but I only used that to try and explain my thought process, not as some sort of vindication. I know that what I did had a big negative effect on the game and, for that, I am very sorry. I said that clearly and completely at first, and here I just wanted to further explain what I was thinking while it was going on - not as some poor attempt at vindication. Honestly.

Finally, just so you know, I don’t think anyone ever saved a screenshot. That was my brother who posted that, but I’m pretty sure he just dug up the old ticket and response when this all went down. It wasn’t something anyone “saved just in case we got caught.” There was honestly no feeling - at any point - that we were cheating or keeping any big secret. There’s no way to convince anyone of that, I know, and I accept that, but it’s the truth.

And, I’m not here trying to vindicate myself. The damage is done. I just feel I owe it to the community to offer honest answers to legitimate questions partly for everyone’s edification and to appease curiosity, but mostly to try and keep this from being some major stain on a game I loved. I don’t want this to have ripple effects and have people start losing faith because there are all these “cheaters” out there. If that makes any sense. I still care about this game.

Either way, I am glad to hear from you, snewell, and my sincere apologies have been to the community, at large, and to you, please take them as even more personal. Take care and I wish you the best. I’ll miss our rivalry.

I made an assumption on the ticket which definitely could be incorrect but I've opened tickets in the past and they are no longer available. So, I assumed a ticket from three years ago would not be available anymore..

We all make mistakes. We face the consequences, learn from it, and move on. I hope to see you again someday sooner than later.

Yep, he dug it up when this all went down. Had no reason to keep it before this. And, I get it. I made a mistake, and I’m learning from it and moving on.

snewell, good writing there, particularly this analysis:" I think in your hearts you had to know it wasn’t intended and you all knew it…the whole time. Also, for me, the interaction didn’t say it was Ok. It said the exact opposite. It said, yes, I think their may be a problem here – report it to me if you see it again so we can investigate."

I also agree with this: "to deflect and try to point attention to other issues is not the path to follow." For example, whether CS made a weak reply to their initial note doesn't absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

One thing about which I disagree with you is this: "I would say that the users didn’t CHEAT. However, they did violate the fair play guidelines." Here are the Fair Play Guidelines they violated:

"Cheating

All owners must play by the rules and requirements set forth by each game on our site. If an owner discovers a loophole, a way to cheat, or any other method of giving himself an unfair advantage, WhatIfSports reserves the right to take the necessary steps to correct the issue at any time without prior notification. Refunds or roster changes will not be given to any owner in this situation."

The title of that section couldn't be clearer. They cheated.