Posted by CoachSpud on 11/7/2022 9:24:00 PM (view original):
"doogan's honesty is why he is in trouble today, and that just doesn't seem right." You're not right, he was actually penalized for repeatedly cheating, which is the opposite of being honest.

"The decision to ban and/or strip user ID history was not MOB rule, that was WIS rule." Correct, they're the ones who decided not to kick out the cheaters, maybe because they sensed there would be a lot of support for cheating and the cheaters in the forums. Turns out they were right. Apparently cheating is okay in HD.

this is probably a lost cause, but doogan's usage was to inform of no redshirt, one guy a month. he says he viewed it as a tradeoff, as some players took the redshirt - noredshirt negatively, and some took it positively. as far as we know, the prior statement is true.

if someone says that, but then is no redshirting 10 guys a season, then yeah, i'm with you in not buying the claim.

but doogan is saying he viewed it as a legitimate tradeoff, and WIS data bears that out. remember, all this guy did is use, in an extremely basic, straightforward way, the recruiting interface provided by WIS. certainly, using it once is very far from cheating, right? what makes it cheating is when these guys were abusing it 100, 600 times, without reporting it as a problem.

its definitely a matter of opinion where 14 times falls on the spectrum, but it feels to me like 14 times is low enough usage that the coach could very well assume the feature was working as intended. if you think 14 times is over that line, i can respect that, but saying he's a black and white cheater, it just feels unfair. it feels like no effort is being made to put yourself in his shoes.

As a gesture of goodwill, I'd like to extend an open invitation to robinhood, cimmy, and doogan to join me in a D3 conference. You've served your penalty at this point. This would be with thoughts of moving up together eventually to D2 and\or D1 as the opportunity presents itself. If others would like to join and make it a full conference that would be great. I currently have no teams in Smith, Allen, and Knight. Let me know if any of you are up for the challenge and if not maybe sometime in the future.

Posted by snewell12 on 11/7/2022 3:34:00 PM (view original):
npb, I mainly just needed to get my thoughts off my chest. A little bulletin board therapy if that's even possible.

Yes, I think if there is any remaining debate it would be if the severity too harsh but I doubt CS would make any changes at this point so probably not going anywhere anyway.

i agree CS is unlikely to make any changes. i figure this is all theoretical at this point. i do think there is some value in conversing now that emotions have cooled and a very serious punishment handed down, looking to the future. if we could generally agree even that doogan got railroaded and that the mob mentality contributed, maybe next time we'll have a go at this that is a bit more in line with the small, intimate community we have here?

i get the point made by several folks that CS came up with the punishment, not the users. but are those folks really suggesting the mob mentality had nothing to do with the ultimate punishment rendered? that seems naive at best, intentionally misleading at worst.

I think the mob mentality Is just discussions here. You know how many times people say stuff and it leads to nothing? I mean, I’m sure people were angry, but I believe they even stated they get angry tickets and emails all the time. This is their life, job, and what they deal with. (None from me by the way. I haven’t sent a ticket in I don’t know how long. A real life year at last, I’d say). I also don’t believe anybody said “we need to ban all these guys forever”.

Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

i'm not really following how you make the giant leap from your initial statement of the penalty, 1) start over in d3, 2) records deleted... to 'the only penalty is records being deleted'. just because its not that hard to get back to d1 these days? (by st pattys day)

i'm assuming what matters most to these guys is the programs and conferences they cared about and nurtured for real-life years. don't you have any team you care about at all? maybe your alma mater, or just a team you've been a fan of a long time? or even uconn, as an a+ baseline? or a conference you've grown fond of over real years?

it basically sounds like you are saying if you lost all your teams in some crazy renewal glitch, and your resumes too, and you had to start over in d3 in any world you wanted... that would mean nothing to you. which i struggle to relate to because this would mean everything to me. maybe i care about this stuff more than most, programs and conferences - i could believe that. but at a minimum, it means a lot to many coaches, so i don't think it can just be glossed over like this (back in d1 by st pattys).

Posted by gillispie on 11/8/2022 2:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

i'm not really following how you make the giant leap from your initial statement of the penalty, 1) start over in d3, 2) records deleted... to 'the only penalty is records being deleted'. just because its not that hard to get back to d1 these days? (by st pattys day)

i'm assuming what matters most to these guys is the programs and conferences they cared about and nurtured for real-life years. don't you have any team you care about at all? maybe your alma mater, or just a team you've been a fan of a long time? or even uconn, as an a+ baseline? or a conference you've grown fond of over real years?

it basically sounds like you are saying if you lost all your teams in some crazy renewal glitch, and your resumes too, and you had to start over in d3 in any world you wanted... that would mean nothing to you. which i struggle to relate to because this would mean everything to me. maybe i care about this stuff more than most, programs and conferences - i could believe that. but at a minimum, it means a lot to many coaches, so i don't think it can just be glossed over like this (back in d1 by st pattys).

Hi Gil,
I first wanted to make sure i was understanding what their penalty actually is. So it sounds like i have summarized it properly.

Then, partly, I guess i'm wondering what *you* think their penalty should have been/ should be?

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/8/2022 2:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

i'm not really following how you make the giant leap from your initial statement of the penalty, 1) start over in d3, 2) records deleted... to 'the only penalty is records being deleted'. just because its not that hard to get back to d1 these days? (by st pattys day)

i'm assuming what matters most to these guys is the programs and conferences they cared about and nurtured for real-life years. don't you have any team you care about at all? maybe your alma mater, or just a team you've been a fan of a long time? or even uconn, as an a+ baseline? or a conference you've grown fond of over real years?

it basically sounds like you are saying if you lost all your teams in some crazy renewal glitch, and your resumes too, and you had to start over in d3 in any world you wanted... that would mean nothing to you. which i struggle to relate to because this would mean everything to me. maybe i care about this stuff more than most, programs and conferences - i could believe that. but at a minimum, it means a lot to many coaches, so i don't think it can just be glossed over like this (back in d1 by st pattys).

Hi Gil,
I first wanted to make sure i was understanding what their penalty actually is. So it sounds like i have summarized it properly.

Then, partly, I guess i'm wondering what *you* think their penalty should have been/ should be?

very fair question. i'm honestly not sure!

i will say, i think there's a punishment #3 in all of this, which is the public shaming on the forums. its not like these are random people in an anonymous community of millions, i feel like the naming and shaming is meaningful.

anyway, with doogan is where i feel like i can best answer your question. with his version of events, the 14 uses and his explanation, and him coming forth to be honest and explain himself, even though he hadn't been singled out by CS - i think no further punishment is necessary. his use of the system is just too close to expected behavior to meaningfully differentiate his actions from the min-maxing and edge case hunting the rest of us do on a daily basis.

the other guys, i don't know. its definitely tricky. it feels like losing all their teams and resumes is a lot, but i don't know how many teams they had and what tools are available... do they get some sort of probation, -2 scholarships a year for 4 seasons... do they lose just 1 team/resume, i'm not sure. i do think that 600 guy is in his own category, too - at that volume, it sounds like he was doing this over and over on the same players, which is much more exploit-y than informing each recruit of no redshirt once. i don't know much about that 600 guy, never heard of him, but he probably got about what he had coming.

i guess i'm still pretty torn myself on the guys in the middle. on what is appropriate. i think doogan is a different case. with these guys in the middle having serious HBD teams, it does sound like the punishment they got is significantly less than a full ban, which would hit those teams, too. which matters! so perhaps those punishments are in the range of reasonable. it feels on the harsh end but i'm torn, and i also can't expect CS to land exactly where i would, that sort of thing. i'm not so much torn about the 600 guy, he should have gotten a good whacking. and i'm not torn about doogan, i think he got screwed.

Thanks Gil ! i appreciate your answer !!

Putting myself in the position of the coaches, a few things to note…… we will all never agree on what’s the right thing to do. On one end you have people here saying “why is it their fault? They found a way to game the system “. Then on the other end you have people saying “they cheated and should never be seen or heard from again”. Then you have people like myself who feel like the most important part of the entire thing is understanding why it’s an issue, and showing sincere remorse. Which i feel Robinhood has done in great detail. There’s a difference in the way he’s handling it, than say cimmy. Whether anyone else cares about that is not important as far as what I’m trying to describe. But I care, and I was just showing my perspective, and how divided we all are. Not everyone will think like me, and not everyone will be on the far end of either spectrum. Gil feels like Doogan should not have been banned because of reasons he mentioned earlier, which have some valid points. But he was still combative in his mindset. And i feel like a coach like that would come back and wanna “stick it to the man”, and isn’t really a good idea to bring him back. Many of you could care less about that aspect of things!

There will never be an answer. But for ME, if I felt (what i personally would expect someone to feel if returning) remorseful, and I understood how it was a big issue, I’d be more than happy starting at D3. Because my mindset would be “man, i didn’t wanna get kicked out. Still wanna play, but booooy did I screw up. I’ll take D3 Thomas More please and thank you”, and that would be that.

Also, if the mob mentality is so powerful, how come they aren’t being reinstated? plenty of people have come to their defense, just as many that have showed their fangs.

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. There isn't even a suspension, no probationary period announced. How anyone can think this is anything but a slap on the wrist is beyond me.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/8/2022 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. There isn't even a suspension, no probationary period announced. How anyone can think this is anything but a slap on the wrist is beyond me.

Okay next time we'll lock em in the stocks and throw rotten tomatoes at their faces in front of their wife and children.

That enough punishment for you? Relax Spud

create a new world - where the exploit is allowed - call it Swenske World?

Posted by Benis on 11/8/2022 10:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/8/2022 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. There isn't even a suspension, no probationary period announced. How anyone can think this is anything but a slap on the wrist is beyond me.

Okay next time we'll lock em in the stocks and throw rotten tomatoes at their faces in front of their wife and children.

That enough punishment for you? Relax Spud

Didn’t spud get punished for something, way back when? I believe it was before my time. But is all fire, actually just some sarcasm? Or “they were harsh towards me, be harsh towards everybody” type of thing?

i definitely could be wrong. I just know spud is notoriously known for something. Just don’t know what it is

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/9/2022 6:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/8/2022 10:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/8/2022 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/8/2022 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Using the term "mob mentality" repeatedly (i guess i'm referring to gillespie's posts) is doing a disservice to this process.

What has been the penalty?
1. Start back over in D-3.
2. Records deleted.
Right?

So, there is no ban. They can play right now. And they'll be back in D-1 by Saint Patrick's Day.

So the only penalty here is that their records have been deleted. Ok, six guys named "Random-Name-Bunch-of-Numbers" have lost their records.

I think that's the only penalty here. Or am i missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. There isn't even a suspension, no probationary period announced. How anyone can think this is anything but a slap on the wrist is beyond me.

Okay next time we'll lock em in the stocks and throw rotten tomatoes at their faces in front of their wife and children.

That enough punishment for you? Relax Spud

Didn’t spud get punished for something, way back when? I believe it was before my time. But is all fire, actually just some sarcasm? Or “they were harsh towards me, be harsh towards everybody” type of thing?

i definitely could be wrong. I just know spud is notoriously known for something. Just don’t know what it is

He outed himself with multiple accts and alt IDs.

He posted a comment with one acct, deleted it, then posted same comment on his spud acct. Someone screenshotted it and called him out. Then he just denied that it happened.

CS confirmed the accts were the same person as well. Still denies it.

His Spud acct has zero HD teams so obviously he's got secret alt accts that he's using but wants to hide them for some reason. Not suspicious at all.