St Joes Recruiting Gambit Data Topic

Since I took over one of the squads, thought I would share what I see in recruiting history - St Joes which won the title in SMITH as a ghost ship

Juco Michael Hargraves 606 total when recruited
9/15 5:02 AM Scholarship Offer $0
9/14 11:01 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/14 11:01 PM Withdraw Inform of Redshirt $0
9/14 5:01 PM Inform of Redshirt $0
Total $0
11/22/2022 10:00 AM (edited)
rGary Shepard - elite recruit 125 on big board as FR - 792 rating when signed
10/3 5:00 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/19 11:01 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/19 5:01 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/19 11:00 AM Attention Points (20) $0
9/19 5:00 AM Attention Points (20) $0
9/18 11:00 PM Attention Points (10) $0
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 PM Home Visit $281
9/18 5:00 PM Attention Points (10) $0
9/18 11:00 AM Attention Points (20) $0
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/18 11:00 AM Home Visit $281
9/17 11:00 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/15 5:02 PM Promise Minutes (25) $0
9/15 5:02 PM Promise Start $0
9/15 5:02 PM Campus Visit $535
9/15 5:02 AM Attention Points (20) $0
9/15 5:02 AM Scholarship Offer $0
9/14 11:01 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/14 11:01 PM Withdraw Inform of Redshirt $0
9/14 5:01 PM Inform of Redshirt $0
Total $6,155
11/22/2022 9:09 AM (edited)
another elite recruit where it was NOT used - Gordon Cho - 859 when signed - see his recruiting history below

but I suppose the AP saved on the others made it easier to get considered early here

these three guys are the class signed in the last season - of course, I dont see guys who were not signed

and I dont see much unusual in what remains from the first cycle of the current season
11/22/2022 9:10 AM (edited)
9/18 5:09 AM Attention Points (80) $0
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/18 5:09 AM Home Visit $277
9/17 5:01 PM Attention Points (30) $0
9/17 5:01 AM Attention Points (30) $0
9/16 11:01 PM Attention Points (30) $0
9/16 5:01 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/16 11:01 AM Attention Points (20) $0
9/16 5:01 AM Attention Points (20) $0
9/15 11:02 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/15 5:02 PM Attention Points (20) $0
9/15 5:02 AM Promise Start $0
9/15 5:02 AM Promise Minutes (20) $0
9/15 5:02 AM Campus Visit $528
9/14 11:01 PM Scholarship Offer $0
9/14 5:01 PM Attention Points (50) $0
Total $6,068
11/22/2022 6:11 AM (edited)
Thanks for sharing. CLEARLY not what I would expect from a game and how it would work.

After seeing this, I also find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that “zero meaningful recruits were signed with the redshirt on/off” thing. He did it right from the beginning of recruiting. Shady tactic that is blatantly obvious to me that its a shady tactic. And not sure how someone could feel otherwise about it
11/22/2022 4:43 AM
This is super interesting stuff and thanks for posting this metsmax. It does provide insight that you wouldn't otherwise see. Totally agree with topdogggm that this was a clear tactic. Interesting that it wasn't used for Cho.
11/22/2022 10:40 AM
My guess - looking at this - is the you might use the red shirt gambit for a couple of guys - and that way get onto their considered lists/unlock further actions without using any or many AP.

Then, you have enough AP to quickly get considered/unlock actions on some other guys.

Then you cycle some AP into the guys you unlocked with the red shirt manuver

Or something like that - hard to know for sure.

Interesting that we here see one elite player done with red shirt, one elite without, and one juco done with red shirt - I have no info on who else was chased in that recruiting season
11/22/2022 10:54 AM
Major LOL at "zero meaningful recruits were ever informed of their redshirt status."

So we get black and white data for 1 coach for 1 season and he unlocked a top 15 player in the country (big board as a freshman) using this trick. This was a starting player on a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP WINNING TEAM that was so good it won with simmy (not to be confused with cimmy) running the gameplanning. Additionally, he got a very nice player in Hargraves for 20 APs in total. The ripple affect is of course huge here as those recruiting against him thinks he's well invested in both players right out of the gate so we are hesitant to fight for them. Not to mention he got way more early cycle points to target another elite prospect in Cho. I sure hope we dont have to listen to another person from that cohort try to claim this had limited, if at all, effect on their success.
11/22/2022 12:00 PM
To me, the infrequency is really just trying to keep it under wraps. I think probably they knew how valuable the tactic was as long as they kept it to themselves, and didn’t step on each other with it. And of course it definitely could have been a powerful collusive weapon, used sparingly, as long as they didn’t attract unwanted attention. As I’ve said all along, evidence of that would really be the only valid reason for an actual user ban, in my thinking. The lone wolf, regardless of how much they use the tactic, is just using the system that exists, and shouldn’t be blamed for poor design, or expected to know what developers intended, or what everyone else is doing. Does it make game sense? Not really - but not any less than seniors taking redshirts and giving two years of full resources, or players who want to play as HS seniors being ok coming off the bench as college sophs. But since those tactics are varying degrees of better known, we don’t raise these issues with CS as “cheats”.
11/22/2022 12:10 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 11/22/2022 12:10:00 PM (view original):
To me, the infrequency is really just trying to keep it under wraps. I think probably they knew how valuable the tactic was as long as they kept it to themselves, and didn’t step on each other with it. And of course it definitely could have been a powerful collusive weapon, used sparingly, as long as they didn’t attract unwanted attention. As I’ve said all along, evidence of that would really be the only valid reason for an actual user ban, in my thinking. The lone wolf, regardless of how much they use the tactic, is just using the system that exists, and shouldn’t be blamed for poor design, or expected to know what developers intended, or what everyone else is doing. Does it make game sense? Not really - but not any less than seniors taking redshirts and giving two years of full resources, or players who want to play as HS seniors being ok coming off the bench as college sophs. But since those tactics are varying degrees of better known, we don’t raise these issues with CS as “cheats”.
The first sentence is completely correct. These coaches are some of the best in the game and they knew what they were doing. Use it too much and it gets noticed. Use it on a few and it’s extremely hard to catch. Blows my mind people think this wasn’t a big deal. You almost can get top recruits for free and then add in the fact they didn’t battle with each other and no one could touch them.
11/22/2022 12:21 PM
Thanks for sharing the information metsmax. It always baffled me as how these guys could sign as many 5 star recruits that they did so easily. Now I can see in black and white how they took advantage of a loop hole in the game. I agree that they were great coaches but... even though I have no proof, I think the cheating went even further than what has been exposed.
11/22/2022 1:24 PM
Wow! Spot on fellas.

almersk, looking for your opinion on this. Do you finally get it? See it for what it is? It’s ok to backpedal once you see evidence you were unaware of (and now knowing even your friends were lying to YOU as well). I’ve done it many times!

thoughts? Not sure what else has to be shown.
11/22/2022 8:57 PM (edited)
The other trick here is how quickly you can unlock promises and get that extra preference bonus.
11/23/2022 11:31 AM
Agree with shoe that the infrequency was likely to keep from being noticed. These guys were good coaches and smart enough to know if they used this too often someone would notice and be able to prove something unusual was happening. Keep in mind that swenske was the one that was using this so frequently that Benis was able to clearly show something was off. The other guys were only uncovered when CS dug deeper into the data.

They are also smart enough to know how big of an advantage it was, regardless of what they say. Another "possible" tactic that they may have been using (just a hypothesis, we will never know) would be to blast the Redshirt Inform to many, many recruits at the first 5pm cycle, then only remove it selectively on recruits where they noticed an opportunity/low competition. They would have had the option at the second cycle to pick and choose where it would be most useful to remove the redshirt. I believe CS only counted the instances of inform/remove redshirt. It would be interesting if they looked at the total # of inform redshirts that happened for those guys too.
11/23/2022 11:33 AM
There were at least a few guys who showed just an "inform of redshirt" as the first and only step taken at St Joes. I saw a few who were jucos in the cycle when I took over. Could have been - dont know - lots of others who were informed and never withdrawn.

These guys were not stars - they were somewhat useful players. Seems to me that manonde point above suggests that there were multiple ways to use this feature

1. inform of redshirt, then withdraw to get an early lead on elite players - we saw that above

2. inform of redshirt, then withdraw to get a pretty good, solid player very cheap - we saw that above

3. use AP freed up by the above to get other elite players in competition without the redshirt gambit

4. And this is new based on what I saw and his comment - scatter inform of redshirt on a bunch of meh, backup guys. Leave it alone until and unless you lose a couple battles and need to grab a backup. The technique would permit one to switch to the backup in single cycle without AP investment at first
11/23/2022 1:55 PM
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St Joes Recruiting Gambit Data Topic

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