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Hoops Dynasty


Monday, August 27, 2007

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Monday, August 27, 2007 at 4:00 PM EST.

Prestige influences not only recruiting, but how easy/hard jobs are to get and hold onto. We will shortly be introducing changes to how team prestige is handled. Prestige will be much more fluid based on the recent success of your team as well as the conference as a whole. In addition, prestige will be visible on both your office page as well as every team profile page.

Would it be possible to include historical prestige information for a team on the History page, along with its record, RPI, etc., for each season? (Not necessarily retroactively, but starting with the current season and continuing into the future.) (bluespruce - Hall of Famer - 4:11 PM)

Yes, it will be included on the team history page beginning with the next season.

how will the relationship between team prestige and coach prestige work for promotions? (oldresorter - Hall of Famer - 4:13 PM)

Similar to how it works today with the most notable exception being that teams that are down for long periods of time will be easier to 'get' during the job process due to the ability for prestige to fluctuate more than it does today.

Will team prestige be in anyway tied into the success of other teams w/n this world or will it be looked upon in a vaccum, ie can there be 100 teams w/ A+ prestige, or is there a peak on how many team can achive that mark? (taz21 - Hall of Famer - 4:22 PM)

No but there is an implicit tie - as one team wins, another must lose. We do not limit though the number of teams that can be at any particular level.

How will prestige influence recruiting in D1 ? (jaisonline - Hall of Famer - 4:35 PM)

There will be no changes in DIII or DII. In DI, due to the more fluid nature of prestige, teams that have done well will have an easier time recruiting than they have in the past (in theory) and teams that have done poorly will have a more difficult time so taking over a Kansas team that has won a combined 10 games in the past 4 seasons will not immediately result in top 5 recruits considering the school with little recruiting effort.

Can a very successful team in a weak conference maintain an A in prestige? I fear that the rich will just get richer otherwise. (skelly's tea - Hall of Famer - 4:37 PM)

Yes, it's certainly possible to build a Gonzaga-type of program with similar success - even if the rest of the conference is not carrying their weight.

Will players be able to see baseline prestige ratings for other schools, or just a view of their current prestige rating? (sordie - Hall of Famer - 4:39 PM)

You'll be able to see the current prestige of any school in your world and their prestige history which shows where they are today and where they have been but not their baseline.

Let's say I leave Rhode Island to take the job at Villanova. Will my recent success (Winning a NT, 2 Sweet 16s, and NT 2nd) at RI influence 'nova's prestige immediately in my 1st season? (jaisonline - Hall of Famer - 11:42 PM)

It won't be reflected in the school's prestige that is displayed, but it will impact your recruiting efforts (which is the same way it works today).

Does the conference prestige factor only apply to DI or is it for DII and DIII also? (gomiami1972 - Hall of Famer - 11:43 PM)

It is only used at DI. DII and DIII prestige calculations are not being changed - only being made visible.

Several questions: Will there be caps on the highest (or lowest) team prestige certain teams/divisions can reach? ie, can I take over Evansville and run it up to an A+ prestige, conversley could I destroy Duke enough to bring their prestige down to a D? (taz21 - Hall of Famer - 11:32 AM)

No, grades will be by division and range from A+ to D- within that division. Obviously an A+ at DII is not equivalent to an A+ at DI.

As for your other question - it is theoritically possible for you to take any DI school to an A+ -- but that assumes that you're also playing in a conference which has shown sustained success and vice versa - you could take Duke down to a B- -- but that assumes that the rest of the ACC has also been down for an extended amount of time.

One of the issues under the old system was that coaches felt forced to leave a school or conference because the ceilings were higher in an ACC or Big East. Now, if a conference such as the Atlantic 10 is continually placing 4-6 teams in the NT, there will be residual benefits for the entire conference, not just those teams.

Does the floating school prestige mean that it may get HARDER to get a job at a school that has done well under another coach than it would have been under baseline prestige? Like say, someone makes IUPUI into a powerhouse but then moves up to another school - to get the IUPUI job one will have a higher success/credentials threshold? (fd343ny - Hall of Famer - 9:10 PM)

Yes, and vice versa - if the team has done poorly it will be easier to get that job.

Have prestige ceilings and floors been effectively eliminated in D1? Does every team from Sacred Heart to Duke have B- (or D-) to A+ potential, given dependencies on their success and succes of their conference mates? (cbriese - Hall of Famer - 9:14 PM)

It's theoritically possible to turn any school into a powerhouse but it is much more difficult if you're coming from a small school in a smalltime conference. On the flip side, a school's prestige can only fall so far - even if Duke goes 0-27 for 4 straight seasons, they're still part of the ACC and still have the history so it will be much more difficult to sink their prestige to a D- than it would be to drop Quinnipiac to a D-.

Will the addition of prestige make recruiting drop-downs from a higher division more difficult, or is that in the same realm as it "just being made visible?" (horsefan3277 - Pro - 9:16 PM)

There will be no difference in recruiting at DIII or DII.

Will prestige actually help sway a recruit. In other words, you have a team that should be higher in prestige offering a start and minutes and then a team that is lower in prestige offering a start and minutes but pours "carry over" money into a recruit and lands them. Is prestige finally going to end this recruiting strategy? (cyrisnyte - Hall of Famer - 9:20 PM)

No - recruiting will be the same. As it stands today, a promise of starting and/or minutes is already impacted by prestige (starting at Duke is more valuable to a recruit than starting at Dayton).

For the upcoming season (I know Crum & Tark, at least, are between seasons), will prestige be initiated at baseline levels, or will prestige be adjusted to reflect recent historical performance? (sordie - Hall of Famer - 9:21 PM)

For all worlds, it will be displayed based on recent performance - not starting over at baseline.

I've taken over Stanford and Michigan State, moving there because of their higher prestige than Pitt and Michigan from which I moved. BUT, both Stanford and MSU have had some weak seasons under SIM AI and in my first couple of rebuilding seasons. Will I end up getting big prestige hits downward under the new system at Stanford and Mich State based on the last few seasons? If so, not happy to see this change penalize me for taking over elite schools based on what they did in past seasons (metsmax - Hall of Famer - 9:26 PM)

Yes, but the prestige of all schools will initially be set based on the most recent season combined with your old prestige level so no school will see a HUGE swing in prestige at the outset. So if you were at, for example, an A but you've been rebuilding and finished last season at 10-16, instead of being at a B-, you'd may come in at a B+ (I'm just making these up for illustration).

If my team has had success the past two seasons (Elite 8, top 25 ranking, league titles, but my league is weak, what effect does that have on prestige? (jlay - Hall of Famer - 9:28 PM)

Think Gonzaga. You can still be very succesful in a weak conference. Being in a weak conference has it's downside in terms of national prestige and exposure - the upside is that you'll find it much easier to recruit against your conference mates but you'll have a hard time being a national power capable of winning a national championship on a regular basis.

you said D3 would be listed D- to D+. If a team wins an NT and does not even make the PIT the next 4 seasons, how will that influence their recruiting? it seems as though their residual benefits last much longer than it should, encouraging a FAB5 every 4 season... Question: how long will success last if it is short lived? (fuma102 - All-Star - 9:31 PM)

We're actually changing that to go from A+ to D- at all divisions so both a DIII team and a DI team can be at A+ prestige. Back to your question - if the win a national championship in season 1 and then flounder with no post-season appearances for the next 4 seasons - you'll see their prestige go up to an A+ after then national championship and then drop after season 2, season 3, etc.

If a school has a high prestige, but is in a low level DI conference, will this give the school a bump in recruiting? On the other end, if a school in the upper level of DI has a really low prestige, then will it hurt them recruiting? (4hmen - Hall of Famer - 9:33 PM)

Absolutely - that's the way it works today but you'll see it magnified a bit more so the lower level DI teams who have been very successful will benefit more in recruiting than they have in the past and the major DI teams that have struggled will have a tougher time recruiting than they do today.

Follow up Q: What's more important--the prestige the coach brings to the school or the school itself? (Rails - Hall of Famer - 9:36 PM)

I'm assuming you're referring to recruiting. The school, their conference affiliation and the history of the program - all of that combined carry more weight than the success of the coach. That said, most times they will match but in the situation in which a coach takes over a new job, it's a combination of the two when it comes to recruiting.

So prestige is going to be measured from D- to A+ in all divisions right? (kelby_03 - Hall of Famer - 3:37 PM)

Yes, that's correct.

what day this week is the prestige change going to be implemented? (gomiami1972 - Hall of Famer - 3:38 PM)

Ideally tomorrow (Tuesday) but it may not happen until Wednesday.

How many years define "recent" success? How much will one bad year hurt your teams prestige? When will we be able to see our teams prestige rating? Will it not be until the end of the season we are in now? (wilhitec - Hall of Famer - 3:42 PM)

It's basically a moving 4 year weighted average for both the school and the conference. As with a coach's success, more weight is placed on the most recently completed season, then less weight on the season prior to that and so on. Each school's prestige will be updated at the conclusion of the National Championship game so you'll know what you're getting prior to the job change period starting and prior to the start of recruiting.

Say there are two teams in a recruiting battle, and these two teams have an equivalent disparity in prestige as they had before the change. Will the money required to land the recruit now be different? (cal_bears - Hall of Famer - 3:43 PM)

No - if they have the same respective prestige then the recruiting dollars would remain the same.

How easy will it be to change a powerhouse teams prestigue rating? Will one year of missing the tournament drop Duke from A+ to A? (cyoung187 - Hall of Famer - 3:51 PM)

Prior, there was very little movement so even if a Duke missed the post-season 4 years in a row, they were still able to outrecruit 90% of the teams in DI just because they were Duke. Now, they'll still have the historical advantage and the advantage of playing in the ACC - but yes, you could see them get knocked down a letter grade if they have a very bad season.

Will it be possible to have a new level of elite programs as determined by WIS play, independent of "real-life" elites? Could a MAC or MVC team, for example, surpass a UNC or Kansas in prestige, if they consistently performed at a top 10 level? (axeme - Hall of Famer - 3:57 PM)

Yes - in theory that was possible before, just very difficult. Now it still won't be easy, but a coach can turn a non-BCS conference team into a National power - and not just be a one year wonder, but leverage that increase in prestige to build a foundation, ala what Few has done at Gonzaga or Chaney did at Temple.

Will teams have a cap on prestige, like they do on HCA? For example, I took over a pretty bad Marist team in Naismith season 14 and singlehandedly turned them into a national power ;-) However, no matter how successful they got, their HCA never went above B- Will they have the same limitation with prestige? (brocktune310 - Hall of Famer - 4:02 PM)

No - schools (at least currently) are not capped at how high their prestige can rise. They are capped on how low they can fall. Based on modeling, the conference a team is in has been serving as a proxy for an upper limit on a schools prestige. We'll be watching the changes in prestige over the next 4-5 seasons and if we need to implement a cap, we'll do so, but at this time there is not a ceiling.

World Crum's recruiting season begins today at 6PM Eastern. If the prestige is implemented tomorrow, will these changes immediately affect recruiting in Crum? (barracuda3 - Hall of Famer - 4:05 PM)

The new prestige will only impact DI schools and all schools except those in Crum and Tark (due to recruiting) have been moved to the new prestige values. Crum and Tark will be moved after the conclusion of the next recruiting period.

Will HCA also be more fluid now? (daalter - Hall of Famer - 4:06 PM)

A new homecourt advantage algorithim has been developed and will be implemented after prestige. There will be a separate dev. chat to discuss HCA.

Why not just the numerical ratings of each team's prestige? (cal_bears - Hall of Famer - 4:09 PM)

We want coaches to have a general sense of how prestigous each program is in the same manner actual coaches have a general sense how their instituion stacks up against other teams in their division. We don't want it to become a game of math where knowing that I have a 12.2 prestige disadvantage will mean I'll need to reserve an extra 5k to beat out University X.

Will the prestige changes increase the likelihood of coaches losing jobs on the D1 level? (tanzetti - Hall of Famer - 4:11 PM)

That's really a separate issue (rate of firings) which we're also watching. At this time we don't feel the need to increase the rate of firings but we are watching it.

Suppose Big East schools Syracuse and Rutgers both have the exact same history - countless losing seasons (and the same exact current prestige rating). Now suppose they both go to the Final Four in each of the next few seasons. Will they both see the same increase in their prestige each year, or will Syracuse's prestige increase more (or at a faster rate) because it's a higher "baseline" prestige school? (bluespruce - Hall of Famer - 4:17 PM)

That's a difficult question to answer for a couple of reasons on a number of different levels. First, Syracuse would be starting at a higher prestige value than Rutgers so even if they both went 0-27 for 4 straight years, Syracuse would still have a higher prestige because of their actual history, fan support, name recognition, etc. If they both went to the final 4 for the next 4 seasons, Syracuse would end up with a higher prestige for the same reasons. I'm not sure if that exactly answered your question, if not I apologize!

Have you observed any vast prestige value changes in any schools from season 1 of the respective worlds? For instance, have any A+ schools fallen to say a C or have any C schools risen to the level of A or above? What has been the biggest swing? (wisefella99 - Hall of Famer - 4:19 PM)

For this change, how prestige was calculated in the past has not been changed - so Naismith is in season 24 - the prior 23 seasons have been untouched but the new prestige will be used going forward.

You answered a question a few moments ago from barracuda stating that "the new prestige will only impact DI schools" What exactly did you mean by that comment? What about DII and DIII? (gomiami1972 - Hall of Famer - 4:21 PM)

How we calculate prestige for DII and DIII will not be changed - the only change at those divisions is that their prestige will be visible. The reason DII and DIII are not being changed is that the possible range of prestige values at those levels is far smaller than what's possible at DI and the current system does a good job of handling that. In addition, all DII/DIII schools have the same baseline prestige so that's also an issue that needed to be handled differently at DI.

what % of teams will lie in each of the 12 grades for each division? Will there be an approx even dispersal of prestige grades across the grading spectrum, or will there be a bell shaped dispersal so that most of the teams lie in the relative middle and fewer are at the extreme ends of the prestige scale? (taz21 - Hall of Famer - 4:23 PM)

Just like real life, the distribution of prestiges in HD are very much bell-shaped. There are a few at the top and bottom (right and left) and more schools as you approach the center of the curve.

Can I assume that a direct effect of these changes will be perhaps 1 less step to getting your dream school? To expound, say you take over a low D1 school and make the NT a few straight years and your dream school in the ACC has been sub .500 over that time - would you now expect to be able to jump straight to the ACC without hitting the mid-majors? (davisdynasty - Hall of Famer - 4:26 PM)

Certainly that could be the case - schools who have been down should be easier to 'get'. A couple of things to keep in mind - this is not retroactive so you may see a Kentucky who has not had a winning season in 9 years that is coached by the Sim - that will still be a very hard job to if they keep up their losing ways then you may find yourself in Lexington. Also keep in mind that those schools still require a lot of experience...

To clarify your the response to wisefella99's question - are you saying that prestige in the new system will begin at the point where it was under the old system? So if Duke went 0-27 the past three seasons they would still be an A or A+ for now, until the end of the next season? (barracuda3 - Hall of Famer - 4:27 PM)

Yes, that's correct - it's a go-forward change.

will there be an expectation for team prestige? Will we know what it is? Will that be part (all) of the fire process? (oldresorter - Hall of Famer - 4:30 PM)

The job status process will not change and is not impacted by these changes to prestige. You'll still receive emails from your AD at the conclusion of the season anytime your job status changes.

in D3, if one teamis very consistant and has 10 straight nts but only making it to the sweet 16 occasionally while another team makes 4 straight final 4s after never making a nt ever, who will have the better presitge? (tmacfan14 - Veteran - 4:31 PM)

It actually will be very close in DIII but I think the 4 straight Final 4s would have a slight advantage.

If a group of solid coaches move to a low-level conference, like the Northeast, it woud be possible for them to begin significantly improving the conference's, as well as the individual school's prestige. If they become "too strong", is it possible WIS would adjust the prestige ceiling to cap their success in the future? (cbriese - Hall of Famer - 4:33 PM)

I really don't envision a cap being implemented to hold down the Northeast (or any other small conference). It would take a lot of work and numerous seasons for that to happen so I'm not sure why we would stand in the way if it were to happen.

As you improve your school's prestige, will that create higher expectations? Is it possible to reach a point where you get fired because you raised expectations so much and you had a series of bad seasons? (mswilso2 - Hall of Famer - 4:36 PM)

At this point no, taking Quinnipiac to back to back Sweet 16s would move your job status to exceeding expectations and if you won the PIT the following season you remain at exceeding expectations.

In terms of job requirements, does a school's prestige impact the experience needed or just the recent success component? (mswilso2 - Hall of Famer - 4:38 PM)

Just the recent success. Experience is a hard number but the success required fluctates based on the recent history of the school. This has always been the case - you'll just be more likely to see teams that have been down take lesser resumes in the past (and vice versa).

If a new HD world was created, what would determine the initial D1 prestige ratings for season 1 or would all schools start at the same grade ? (jaisonline - Hall of Famer - 4:40 PM)

At DIII and DII everyone begins at the same level. At DI, each school would begin with a baseline prestige which is based on their actual history, conference affiliation, etc. since all of the schools at DI would be sim-coached, those prestige values would change over time based on how that team has done in that world.

So, in the above example, a beaten-down Syracuse's prestige would recover *faster* than the prestige of a beaten-down Rutgers (all else equal)? (bluespruce - Hall of Famer - 4:41 PM)

If I follow what you're asking properly - yes.

Could you also include current prestige as an additional (and sortable) column on the "RPI By School" page (the one that lists all schools in each division)? Would be interesting to see how teams compare without having to click individually on each one. Thanks. (bluespruce - Hall of Famer - 4:44 PM)

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll definitely forward along and see if we can get that in for this week.

Regarding coach prestige as it relates to school prestige, in rl, I'd think that if Billy Donovan took the Colorado State job (because he wanted to ski more) I'd think CSU would have a higher prestige grade than it currently does by simply him being there. Any thoughts about coach prestige changes? (Rails - Hall of Famer - 4:47 PM)

That's already taken into consideration - we just do it separately right now. So when a coach is recruiting we look at both the prestige of the school that's making the phone call as well as the success of the coach that's calling the kid so even though Col. State wouldn't see a change to their school prestige, they would still have an easier time recruiting than pre-Billy.

I know you can't talk specifics, but could you give some sort of estimate on how long it would take to raise a low-D1 school to an elite? For example, how many consecutive final fours before American U would approach Duke's level? (mswilso2 - Hall of Famer - 4:51 PM)

I'm completely guessing here, but if you start American at a D-, I'd expect it to 7-8 seasons of strong finishes (not necessarily Final 4s, but getting past the Sweet 16) and that assumes that the rest of the conference is holding their own. Complete guess since there are so many variables, please don't quote me on that. This is off the record, right?

In the go-forward institution of prestige, are you still going to use the previous 4 seasons of a school's history to calculate it? (cal_bears - Hall of Famer - 4:52 PM)


If a D1 program went on probation (depending on violation), how much will its prestige grade be impacted? (jaisonline - Hall of Famer - 4:54 PM)

That's a great question - currently probation does not impact prestige directly. It knocks down a coach's reputation which makes it harder to recruit. I'll forward that along as well.

What all effects the rise/fall in prestige? Conference standings, national tournament wins, postseason invitation wins I assume, will anything else like recruiting class rankings, kids getting drafted, games vs top 25 schools, kids on the all conference/all american list effect team prestige at all? (taz21 - Hall of Famer - 4:58 PM)

Currently we look at every game a team plays that season (location, result, margin of victory or loss, strength of opponent), RPI, national ranking, conference-tournament performance, post-season bids, post-season wins and players drafted.

With the landscape of CBB changing--it was only 10 years ago that Gonzaga wasn't even on the map. In fact, Loyola, Mmt with their run with Bo Kimble following Gathers' death was actually more prestigious at the time than 'Zaga. What if Few would have landed at Loyola? Wouldn't they have become what Gonzaga did? Why spoonfeed teams with a baseline prestige that's different than their conference prestige (Rutgers/'Cuse). (Rails - Hall of Famer - 5:02 PM)

I'm not sure I follow the question - if you're asking why conference success plays a role in your team's prestige, that's because of the exposure the top conferences receive and that's due to those conferences having national ranked teams which leads to being on ESPN (doh, I mean Fox), highlighted in USA Today, etc. - with exposure comes TV contracts which makes it easier to recruit and makes it easier to pay your coaches more (and no, don't ask for a raise if you leave W. Chester).

As always, thanks for taking the time to submit your questions!

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