Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:31:00 PM (view original):
It's certainly OK to bring up Kenny Lofton in a HOF discussion, assuming it goes like this:

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

Again, the argument is "it's Kenny Lofton."

Bobby Bonilla made 4 straight and 7 of 9.     One of the best RF of his time?

Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

So when baseballreference tells you he's the 10th or so best CFer of all-time, you're laughing at it, right?

Posted by byeags25 on 1/8/2014 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/8/2014 12:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by byeags25 on 1/8/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
I normally try and stay away from these conversations, but I just don't understand the logic behind this.  If a difference of 1 over the course of a season isn't big, then how is a difference of 15-20 over the course of a 20 year career big?  It's the exact same thing.  The player with the higher number was worth 15-20 more wins over the course of their career, or 1 win per season (assuming both players played 20 seasons of course)

WAR is inexact. It's three components (offense, defense, and baserunning) measured in runs and then translated to wins above a theoretical replacement level.

It doesn't make sense to insist on it being exact, like 3.4 being measurably different than 3.1. Instead you round off. But, over 20 years, a 15 or 20 win difference is significant.

I understand what WAR is.  What I don't understand is the logic that over 1 year, a difference of 1 WAR is insignificant, but over 20 years, a difference of 20 WAR (1 per season) is significant

David Ortiz hit 30 home runs this year and Prince Fielder hit 25. To me, a 5 home run difference in one year is not much of a difference. But over 20 years? That's 100 home runs. A big difference.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/8/2014 1:35:00 PM (view original):
Bobby Bonilla made 4 straight and 7 of 9.     One of the best RF of his time?

Do you remember Bonilla as a Pirate? There's a reason why the Mets made him the richest player in baseball.  During his late Pirate career, yes, he was one of the best RFers in the game.  Finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP before he left.

Once you consider other factors, you realize he's not a HOFer, if that's your next question.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

So when baseballreference tells you he's the 10th or so best CFer of all-time, you're laughing at it, right?

You're forgetting that tec already knows everything there is to know about baseball and only wants to see stats that confirm that knowledge. Any stats that don't confirm said knowledge are to be disregarded.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

So when baseballreference tells you he's the 10th or so best CFer of all-time, you're laughing at it, right?

And where in br.com does it say that?

Posted by bad_luck on 1/8/2014 1:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

So when baseballreference tells you he's the 10th or so best CFer of all-time, you're laughing at it, right?

You're forgetting that tec already knows everything there is to know about baseball and only wants to see stats that confirm that knowledge. Any stats that don't confirm said knowledge are to be disregarded.

I never claimed to know everything about baseball.  But I think I have a better grasp on it than you.

Which, I know, doesn't really say a lot.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

So when baseballreference tells you he's the 10th or so best CFer of all-time, you're laughing at it, right?

And where in br.com does it say that?

You'd be looking at WAR and JAWS, so it's irrelevant because you'd ignore it.  But br.com does have it.

WAR, ************!!!!

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/8/2014 1:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Good point.  Allow me to fix that.

. . . .

Joe:  Next up for consideration is Kenny Lofton.

Bill:  Let me review his career.  (click, click, click on baseball-reference.com).  Ha ha ha.  No.  Who's next on the list?

. . .

So when baseballreference tells you he's the 10th or so best CFer of all-time, you're laughing at it, right?

You're forgetting that tec already knows everything there is to know about baseball and only wants to see stats that confirm that knowledge. Any stats that don't confirm said knowledge are to be disregarded.

I never claimed to know everything about baseball.  But I think I have a better grasp on it than you.

Which, I know, doesn't really say a lot.

You've made it fairly clear that you don't.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:46:00 PM (view original):
WAR, ************!!!!

I know.

Just curious - Look at this link and tell me which guys below Lofton who are better players, and more worthy HOFers.  IMO, there are a few there.  

www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtml

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/8/2014 1:46:00 PM (view original):
WAR, ************!!!!

I know.

Just curious - Look at this link and tell me which guys below Lofton who are better players, and more worthy HOFers.  IMO, there are a few there.  

www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtml

The fact that this can even be argued proves the point. Lofton deserves/deserved consideration. No one is saying he's a slam dunk. Neither one of us would have voted for him this year.

Tec's insistence that Lofton is so unworthy that even considering him is deserving of ridicule says a TON about what tec does and does not understand about baseball.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/8/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/8/2014 1:35:00 PM (view original):
Bobby Bonilla made 4 straight and 7 of 9.     One of the best RF of his time?

Do you remember Bonilla as a Pirate? There's a reason why the Mets made him the richest player in baseball.  During his late Pirate career, yes, he was one of the best RFers in the game.  Finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP before he left.

Once you consider other factors, you realize he's not a HOFer, if that's your next question.

Can we consider the other factors, the ones before and after his 6 straight A/S appearances, for Lofton?