Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 3:52:00 PM (view original):
Hell, you may even have a nice FIP if you can keep it in the park. 
My 47 MPH fastball has some natural movement on it that causes it to dip in the strike zone to induce ground balls.  I think it's called "gravity".
2/22/2012 3:56 PM
MikeT23
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As long as it stays in the strike zone, and the park, your FIP will be fine.

I'm pretty sure Dan Plesac and Oliver Perez will be inducted soon.  Those dudes could strike people out.
2/22/2012 4:00 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/22/2012 3:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 3:52:00 PM (view original):
Hell, you may even have a nice FIP if you can keep it in the park. 
My 47 MPH fastball has some natural movement on it that causes it to dip in the strike zone to induce ground balls.  I think it's called "gravity".
That obviously wouldn't apply.  The BABIP is the league average from actual major league pitchers (it's been within a few points of .300 since they started using modern gloves).  A 51 year old throwing 47 mph is outside that group and would not experience similar results.

See this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-BABI?urn=mlb-203710
2/22/2012 4:03 PM
MikeT23
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You obviously don't understand ADVANCED STATS, tec.    Probably 'cause you're so old.   If only there was someone around who'd post links and explain them to you.
2/22/2012 4:09 PM
Jtpsops
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4 pitchers who debuted within a year of each other - 2 flame throwers, two not so much. Which two are the better pitchers?

Roy Halladay - 2531 IP, 6.9K/9

Tim Hudson - 2503 IP, 6.1K/9

AJ Burnett - 1960 IP, 8.2K/9

Kerry Wood - 1371 IP, 10.3K/9
2/22/2012 4:13 PM
Jtpsops
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In fact, one might even argue Halladay became a better pitcher once he STOPPED trying to strike everyone out.
2/22/2012 4:13 PM
jrd_x
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Strikeout aren't the ONLY thing that matters.  Context is.  That's the point.  We should look K rates in conjunction with other stats.  
2/22/2012 4:18 PM
MikeT23
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Like walks and homers.    Hits and runs don't matter.  Just walks, whiffs and homers.  

Easy, peasy. 

2/22/2012 4:20 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/22/2012 4:18:00 PM (view original):
Strikeout aren't the ONLY thing that matters.  Context is.  That's the point.  We should look K rates in conjunction with other stats.  
Wow - I just said you have to put it in context; you can't look at stats in a vacuum.

Because, you know, that's exactly what you were doing. You flat out said guys who strike out more hitters are better pitchers - and I just provided you with a very small sample refuting that. And there are many more.
2/22/2012 4:24 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/22/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/22/2012 4:18:00 PM (view original):
Strikeout aren't the ONLY thing that matters.  Context is.  That's the point.  We should look K rates in conjunction with other stats.  
Wow - I just said you have to put it in context; you can't look at stats in a vacuum.

Because, you know, that's exactly what you were doing. You flat out said guys who strike out more hitters are better pitchers - and I just provided you with a very small sample refuting that. And there are many more.
Speaking in generalities, it's true.   Halladay is obviously a better pitcher than Burnett but he still strikes hitters out at a relatively high rate.
2/22/2012 4:30 PM
Jtpsops
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Again, not what you said. You said pitchers who strike out MORE hitters are better - Hudson and Halladay both strike out fewer hitters than Wood and Burnett, but are much better pitchers. And again, that's a very small sample. I could find you plenty of examples of that, which would push it well behind a rarity or an exception to your "rule".
2/22/2012 4:35 PM
MikeT23
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Not allowing a batter to hit the ball is good.   WHO KNEW!??!?!?!?!

What about not allowing them to hit it a long way?

Or not allowing them to hit the ball but not getting them out?

Where do those fall on the good/bad scale?

I think we're onto some groundbreaking **** here.
2/22/2012 4:36 PM
MikeT23
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Who said this?

ERA+ and FIP are better than both.

If ERA is such a "luck" stat, why do the same guys keep getting low ones?   And, if it's some defensive dependant, why is ERA+ even useful?
2/22/2012 4:38 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/22/2012 4:35:00 PM (view original):
Again, not what you said. You said pitchers who strike out MORE hitters are better - Hudson and Halladay both strike out fewer hitters than Wood and Burnett, but are much better pitchers. And again, that's a very small sample. I could find you plenty of examples of that, which would push it well behind a rarity or an exception to your "rule".
Fine, I worded it poorly.

Pitchers who strike out batters at a high rate tend to be better than pitchers who strike out batters at a low rate.

Better?
2/22/2012 4:39 PM
Jtpsops
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A little, but I'm sure I can still find you plenty of examples to the contrary.

It would be the hitter equivalent of saying HR hitters are better than high average hitters, since HRs automatically put runs on the board. While that may be true, it doesn't necessarily mean that HR hitters are better or more valuable, just like putting fewer balls in play doesn't necessarily mean you'll get the better result.

If a guy has a heavy sinker and 80% of balls in play are groundballs on the infield, I like that better than a guy who has 50-60% of balls put in play, but all of them are laced to the gaps or over the OF wall.
2/22/2012 4:47 PM
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