Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

jrd_x
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Looks basic enough. Carlton was better for the same amount of innings and then pitched another 1800 innings at a high level.
2/23/2012 10:22 PM
Jtpsops
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Marginally better on the stat sheet. Not necessarily better in terms of talent or when it mattered most.
2/23/2012 10:27 PM
jrd_x
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I'll give you marginally better for the first 3200 innings but the additional 1800 that Carlton was able to pitch at a high level puts him past Hunter by a lot.
2/23/2012 10:35 PM
Jtpsops
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Again, you're arguing stats again. And I agree, Carlton's career was more valuable. But that doesn't mean he was a better pitcher. And there's no set number of IP you have to pitch to be elected into the hall. A good pitcher with 3,000 IP is just as eligible as a good pitcher with 5,000
2/23/2012 10:49 PM
smeric
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A lot of times I feel people bust your chops unfairly and it's my opinion you have some great opinions and thoughts, but .....

"And I agree, Carlton's career was more valuable. But that doesn't mean he was a better pitcher"
 

... has got to be one of the more ridiculous statements I have seen made in a while.  
 
2/23/2012 11:17 PM
Jtpsops
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We've been over this.

5,000 IP of X production is better than 3,000 IP of X production. So guy A had the better career, even though both pitchers were equally as good. It's not a difficult concept.
2/23/2012 11:20 PM
smeric
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If they were "equally as good" they would have had equally long careers. It's not a difficult concept.
2/23/2012 11:43 PM
Jtpsops
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Really? So Jamie Moyer was a better pitcher than Sandy Koufax?

Longevity has nothing to do with ability/talent
2/23/2012 11:54 PM
smeric
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No **** Sherlock ... But two pitchers with essentially the same stat lines with one pitching substantially longer *is* obviously the better pitcher overall
2/24/2012 12:11 AM
smeric
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Based on your logic Strasberg's 2010 was just as good as Halladay's ... That's retarded

I haven't actually looked up their 2010 numbers but they were the names that came to mind to make my point
2/24/2012 12:15 AM (edited)
Jtpsops
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Posted by smeric on 2/24/2012 12:11:00 AM (view original):
No **** Sherlock ... But two pitchers with essentially the same stat lines with one pitching substantially longer *is* obviously the better pitcher overall
Ok there, Watson.

If you have two guys with the exact same abilities, and pitcher A throws 3,000 IP and retires dealing with health issues, while pitcher B goes on to throw 5,000...they're still equally good pitchers. Player B was healthier and definitely had the better career. But he was not the better PITCHER.

Again, not a difficult concept. But yet I'm not shocked you're having trouble with it.

2/24/2012 12:23 AM
dapperduck
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Posted by smeric on 2/23/2012 11:17:00 PM (view original):
A lot of times I feel people bust your chops unfairly and it's my opinion you have some great opinions and thoughts, but .....

"And I agree, Carlton's career was more valuable. But that doesn't mean he was a better pitcher"
 

... has got to be one of the more ridiculous statements I have seen made in a while.  
 
LMAO +1


2/24/2012 12:37 AM
Jtpsops
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K, so according to smearic and daffyduck, players like Sandy Koufax and Barry Sanders can't be in any "best ever" discussions because they didn't play long enough.

I wonder if someone's told the HOF voters that the best players always have the longest careers. It would sure make things easier
2/24/2012 12:49 AM (edited)
The Taint
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 4:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/23/2012 4:00:00 PM (view original):
I'm sure you'll find very different schools of thought. I'm sure the following conservation goes on in many front offices:

Stat Geek: "I don't think Bob's that good. His stats are average"

Scout: "I've watched Bob play, a lot. He's got the goods. He's got all the qualities we want in a player".

And then the GM has to decide which way he wants to go. Money, character and the ever popular intangibles factor in as much as raw numbers.
I think it depends on what level of player you're talking about.  The draft?  Maybe.  I know for high school and college kids stats don't mean much.  Ceiling, make up, and money play a large role.  Minor league stats are usually used cautiously, depending on level, league, park effects, etc.

But for major league player personnel decisions? Stats are king.
Money available to spend is king.
2/24/2012 1:13 AM
tecwrg2
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Posted by smeric on 2/23/2012 11:43:00 PM (view original):
If they were "equally as good" they would have had equally long careers. It's not a difficult concept.
Quantity <> quality.

An analogy: you and your wife/girlfriend/whoever go out to dinner one night.  You both order the same item from the menu.  You get the full entree, but she only orders the half-portion.  Which one tastes better?
2/24/2012 6:16 AM
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