Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

Jtpsops
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/24/2012 5:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 5:28:00 PM (view original):

I agree that Carlton had the better career.  I've never disputed that.  But he was not a better pitcher.

Why can't jrd comprehend that?

You can't have a better career without being the better pitcher.
Yes you can. And we've explained it to you in many ways. Your continued response is, "ya, but where's the evidence???".

It's not our fault your brain is too small to understand the examples placed before you.
2/24/2012 5:40 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/24/2012 5:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/24/2012 5:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 5:28:00 PM (view original):

I agree that Carlton had the better career.  I've never disputed that.  But he was not a better pitcher.

Why can't jrd comprehend that?

You can't have a better career without being the better pitcher.
Yes you can. And we've explained it to you in many ways. Your continued response is, "ya, but where's the evidence???".

It's not our fault your brain is too small to understand the examples placed before you.
No you can't.  The pitcher with the better career is the better pitcher.
2/24/2012 5:42 PM
Jtpsops
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Wrong. Again.
2/24/2012 5:45 PM
jrd_x
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You're arguing that black is white.

Take Carlton and Hunter out of it.

Everyone agrees that Pitcher A had a better career than Pitcher B.  Who is the better pitcher?
2/24/2012 5:48 PM
eschwartz67
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/24/2012 5:08:00 PM (view original):
E, are we really playing the "if we subtract" game now?

Carlton was 225-160 from 1965-79.  If you subtract his 5 best seasons, he's 108-113. Seems right on par with Hunter, wouldn't you say?
No.  If you subtract his best 5 seasons from 1965-1979 and not his 5 best overall seasons (2 of which came in 1980 (24 wins) & 1982 (23 wins), he is 121-113.  Not 108-113.  Not like 121-113 is world beating.  But it is not what you stated. 
I see your point though.  113-117 is not THAT much worse.  I guess because it is under .500, that makes it look bad.  
2/24/2012 5:48 PM
jm1618
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Everyone seems to be at an impasse.  Jtpsops defines better pitcher as "better during their prime".  jrd_x defines better pitcher as "the guy I'd draft to lead my franchise for the next 20 years".
2/24/2012 5:51 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by jm1618 on 2/24/2012 5:51:00 PM (view original):
Everyone seems to be at an impasse.  Jtpsops defines better pitcher as "better during their prime".  jrd_x defines better pitcher as "the guy I'd draft to lead my franchise for the next 20 years".
I agree...sort of.  Hunter was never better than Carlton.  Even Jtpsops said Carlton was "marginally better" for the time their careers overlapped.
2/24/2012 5:53 PM
jm1618
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Why is Walter Johnson widely considered the greatest pitcher of all time?  Several pitchers have been more effective than him.  But of the pitchers who approach his effectiveness, none threw nearly as many innings.
2/24/2012 5:59 PM
toddcommish
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Posted by thejuice6 on 2/24/2012 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Carlton "may" have been a better pitcher in real life, but here in the SIM, if I needed one victory and had my choice of the two, I'd go with Hunter.  Hell, I'd go with Cory Lidle over Carlton.  Hell, I'd even go with Tim Wakefield over Carlton.  The man has got to be the most "under-achieving" pitcher in the database!

(and that's all I'm adding to this 38+ pages of drivel...)
Hey, juice, maybe you should start a league where half the teams take Carlton's best four years, and the other half take Hunter's best four.

Keep the lineups and the relievers static, and see who wins.

After all, the SIM is inherently a mathematical, probability driven algorithm.  Rather than depend on the personal observations of a bunch of cranky old farts or the statistical machinations of a bunch of socially stunted computer nerds, let Carlton and Hunter duel it out in the WIS arena.

2/24/2012 6:14 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/24/2012 5:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 5:28:00 PM (view original):

I agree that Carlton had the better career.  I've never disputed that.  But he was not a better pitcher.

Why can't jrd comprehend that?

You can't have a better career without being the better pitcher.
Hypothetical example.  Let's assume that both pitchers are contemporaries and in the same league; their careers overlap and they are facing common opponents:

Pitcher A:  8 seasons, 143-68 W/L record, 1898 IP, 2.69 ERA, 158 ERA+, 1.096 WHIP
Pitcher B: 13 seasons, 192-111 W/L record, 2776 IP, 3.06 ERA, 145 ERA+, 1.158 WHIP

Who's the better pitcher?  Who had the better career?

2/24/2012 6:15 PM
toddcommish
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Oooh, a guessing game!  Who can figure this out without looking up the numbers?!?!?!

2/24/2012 6:20 PM
toddcommish
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A has to be Pedro.
2/24/2012 6:23 PM
jm1618
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Posted by toddcommish on 2/24/2012 6:20:00 PM (view original):

Oooh, a guessing game!  Who can figure this out without looking up the numbers?!?!?!

The numbers really are hypothetical.  Lon Warneke is the only pitcher who won 192 games, and he played 15 seasons.
2/24/2012 6:24 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 6:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/24/2012 5:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 5:28:00 PM (view original):

I agree that Carlton had the better career.  I've never disputed that.  But he was not a better pitcher.

Why can't jrd comprehend that?

You can't have a better career without being the better pitcher.
Hypothetical example.  Let's assume that both pitchers are contemporaries and in the same league; their careers overlap and they are facing common opponents:

Pitcher A:  8 seasons, 143-68 W/L record, 1898 IP, 2.69 ERA, 158 ERA+, 1.096 WHIP
Pitcher B: 13 seasons, 192-111 W/L record, 2776 IP, 3.06 ERA, 145 ERA+, 1.158 WHIP

Who's the better pitcher?  Who had the better career?

Those are either made up or incomplete sections of a career.  A career 158 ERA+ would be among the best all time.
2/24/2012 6:26 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by eschwartz67 on 2/24/2012 5:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/24/2012 5:08:00 PM (view original):
E, are we really playing the "if we subtract" game now?

Carlton was 225-160 from 1965-79.  If you subtract his 5 best seasons, he's 108-113. Seems right on par with Hunter, wouldn't you say?
No.  If you subtract his best 5 seasons from 1965-1979 and not his 5 best overall seasons (2 of which came in 1980 (24 wins) & 1982 (23 wins), he is 121-113.  Not 108-113.  Not like 121-113 is world beating.  But it is not what you stated. 
I see your point though.  113-117 is not THAT much worse.  I guess because it is under .500, that makes it look bad.  
You're right, I got the years mixed up. But I'm willing to get if you take away the best 5 seasons of most HOFers careers, they may look a lot more pedestrian than we'd expect
2/24/2012 6:26 PM
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