Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 7:24:00 PM (view original):
As I said, for the purposes of this hypothetical assume it's complete career numbers for player A and player B.  Maybe both of their hypothetical careers were abruptly cut short due to injury.
Then A obviously had the better peak.  But I'd take B over A.  The other numbers are close and an extra thousand innings at a 143 ERA+ are too much to give up.

B was the better pitcher.
2/24/2012 7:25 PM
jrd_x
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But these aren't full careers of real major league pitchers, so who are they?
2/24/2012 7:26 PM
tecwrg
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It boggles the mind to say that the player with the worse numbers across the board is the better pitcher.  Better career . . . yes.  Better pitcher . . . not necessarily.

But this was kind of a trick question.

A is Roger Clemens from 1985 through 1992.
B is Roger Clemens from 1984 through 1996.
2/24/2012 7:35 PM
jrd_x
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That was dumb, you know that right?  You asked me to pick between the peak years of a pitcher and that same pitcher's peak plus five years.

Wouldn't you rather have B also?
2/24/2012 7:38 PM
tecwrg
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The hypothetical was that they were different pitchers with different length careers.

Clearly, A was the better pitcher during his career, but his career was cut short due to injury.

B had the better career because he pitched at a high level for a longer period of time before his career ended.

I would take the better pitcher for 8 seasons.  Because he was better.

2/24/2012 7:48 PM
jrd_x
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Except he wasn't.  B was just as good (exactly as good, it turns out) and then pitched another 1000 innings.
2/24/2012 7:50 PM
MikeT23
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You're an idiot. 

Thread closed.
2/24/2012 7:55 PM
tecwrg
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Without knowing they were the same player, you couldn't say that for sure. 

Maybe A had consistently better numbers during his 8 seasons than B did for his 13 seasons.  Which would make him the better pitcher, just with a shorter career.

But this was actually a decent example because it mirrored the Hunter/Carlton situation.  Essentially the same pitcher with nearly identical numbers for 15 seasons.  And then Carlton's career extended at a lower level of performance for 60% longer.  Much like Clemens for 8 and Clemens for 13.

2/24/2012 7:59 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/24/2012 7:48:00 PM (view original):

The hypothetical was that they were different pitchers with different length careers.

Clearly, A was the better pitcher during his career, but his career was cut short due to injury.

B had the better career because he pitched at a high level for a longer period of time before his career ended.

I would take the better pitcher for 8 seasons.  Because he was better.

I just read this again and a thought occurred to me.

Do you not understand that rate stats tend to get worse as a player ages?

Your Clemens example is perfect.  The rate stat totals for the 8 season peak were better than the rate stat totals for the 13 season period.  But it was the same pitcher.  Pitcher B was just as good in his peak but the additional innings diluted the stats slightly.  But those innings, even if they are past the peak innings, still have a ton a value.  And he was still a very good pitcher.  You'd have to be retarded to take A over B.


2/24/2012 7:59 PM
tecwrg
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Do you understand "hypothetical", "different pitchers" and "careers cut short by injury"?

Should I have additionally qualified the example with they were both pitching at peak levels when their respective careers ended?  That neither had started to decline significantly due to age?

Would that have changed your answer?
2/24/2012 8:06 PM
jrd_x
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I don't need to play your games anymore. Even if they had been different pitchers with the same stats and full careers, B still would have been the better choice. His peak was just as good and then he continued to pitch at a high level for another five seasons.
2/24/2012 8:17 PM
jm1618
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"Essentially the same pitcher with nearly identical numbers for 15 seasons.  And then Carlton's career extended at a lower level of performance for 60% longer."

So basically, you're saying that Carlton duplicated what Hunter did during his career, and then tacked on another 9 years of major league quality pitching.  I don't know how you draw the conclusion that Hunter is better.
2/24/2012 8:19 PM
tecwrg
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I never said Hunter was better.  I've been saying all along that he and Carlton were equals during the time their careers overlapped (from '65 through '79).

jrd is insisting that Carlton was clearly better during that timeframe.  I disagree.  They were pretty much the same pitcher for 15 years.  Then Hunter retired and Carlton continued pitching for another 9.
2/24/2012 8:34 PM
Jtpsops
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Someone better call Koufax and tell him he didn't play long enough to deserve HOF status.
2/24/2012 8:43 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/24/2012 8:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't need to play your games anymore. Even if they had been different pitchers with the same stats and full careers, B still would have been the better choice. His peak was just as good and then he continued to pitch at a high level for another five seasons.
Even on your way out the droor, you still cannot grasp the concept.  No surpise, I guess.
2/24/2012 8:46 PM
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