Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

jrd_x
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Pitcher A  -  3.08 ERA, 119 ERA+, 1.225 WHIP, 3.13 FIP
Pitcher B  -  3.26 ERA, 105 ERA+, 1.134 WHIP, 3.66 FIP

Same amount of innings.  Who's better?
2/24/2012 10:01 PM
Jtpsops
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They look pretty even to me.
2/25/2012 12:00 AM
MikeT23
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I thought I shut this retardedness down last night.
2/25/2012 8:36 AM
antoncresten
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CLOSED
2/25/2012 8:38 AM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 12:00:00 AM (view original):
They look pretty even to me.
Pitcher A is better. Just like tec said yesterday in his awesome Clemens example, he'd pick the guy with the better stats. Pitcher A has better stats.

Oh and then Pitcher A went on to throw another 1800 innings and still didn't fall behind pitcher B in ERA, ERA+, or FIP.
2/25/2012 9:19 AM
tecwrg
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Depends on which stats you consider most important.  I value WHIP and OAV over FIP.  Too much other "noise" in ERA, and therefore in ERA+.

Here's some more stats you may be interested in:

Pitcher A (hitters OAV/OBP/SLG/OPS against): .237/.302/.356/.658
Pitcher B (hitters OAV/OBP/SLG/OPS against): .231/.285/.371/.656

Seeing that they were basically the same pitcher, I'd be just as happy with either one.  A coin flip would work for me.

2/25/2012 9:50 AM
tecwrg
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Oh, and as you said last night "I don't need to play your games anymore."

Enjoy your weekend.

CLOSED.
2/25/2012 9:52 AM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/25/2012 9:51:00 AM (view original):

Depends on which stats you consider most important.  I value WHIP and OAV over FIP.  Too much other "noise" in ERA, and therefore in ERA+.

Here's some more stats you may be interested in:

Pitcher A (hitters OAV/OBP/SLG/OPS against): .237/.302/.356/.658
Pitcher B (hitters OAV/OBP/SLG/OPS against): .231/.285/.371/.656

Seeing that they were basically the same pitcher, I'd be just as happy with either one.  A coin flip would work for me.

There's too much noise in ERA but not WHIP? Carlton allowed slightly more base runners but Hunter allowed more to score. Adjust for league and era and Carlton was 14 percent better over the same time frame. Then he went on to pitch another 1800 innings. Carlton was the better pitcher.
2/25/2012 10:01 AM
tecwrg
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Scenario 1:

Batter 1: Single
Batter 2: Walk
Batter 3: Pop-out (one out)
Batter 4: Infield Single
Batter 5: Strikeout (two outs)
Batter 6: Ground Out (three outs)

Pitcher's ERA for the inning: 0.00
Pitcher's WHIP for the inning: 3.000

Which better represents the pitcher's performance?

Scenario 2:

Batter 1: Strikeout (one out)
Batter 2: Strikeout (two outs)
Batter 3: Reaches on infield error
Batter 4: Walk
Batter 5: Single, batter 3 scores
Batter 6: 3 run homer
Batter 7: Fly-out (three outs)

Pitcher's ERA for the inning: 0.00
Pitcher's WHIP for the inning: 3.000

Which better represents the pitcher's performance?
2/25/2012 10:19 AM
jrd_x
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We're down to one inning now? The pitcher that gave up the HR is worse which is why we look at FIP which incorporates HR allowed.

Last night you said you'd rather have the pitcher that put up 8 years of Clemens stats over the pitcher that put up the same exact 8 years of stats plus 5 more well above average years.

You're an idiot.
2/25/2012 10:24 AM
tecwrg
Posts: 18997 (0)
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/25/2012 9:53:00 AM (view original):
Oh, and as you said last night "I don't need to play your games anymore."

Enjoy your weekend.

CLOSED.
And this, one last time.
2/25/2012 10:25 AM
jrd_x
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 10:24:00 AM (view original):
We're down to one inning now? The pitcher that gave up the HR is worse which is why we look at FIP which incorporates HR allowed.

Last night you said you'd rather have the pitcher that put up 8 years of Clemens stats over the pitcher that put up the same exact 8 years of stats plus 5 more well above average years.

You're an idiot.
You're still an idiot

And Carlton was WAY better
2/25/2012 10:26 AM
Jtpsops
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I'll simplify it for you, chef jrd - the most effective thing you can do as a pitcher is keep runners off the basepaths. If there's no one on base, other factors matter very little, if at all - ballpark, weather, pitch selection, defense, etc. What stat measures that best? WHIP.  WHIP may not be an all encompassing super stat, but I will take the guy with the better WHIP 99% of the time. The only exception would be a guy with a huge sample size of starts that has shown, even when in trouble, he has a superhuman ability to strand runners.

Hunter kept runners of the basepaths better than Carlton did. That's the bottom line. Baseball 101 - unless you hit a ton of solo HRs, you can't score runs if no one's on base.

2/25/2012 11:01 AM
Jtpsops
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jrd - What do the following pitchers have in common?

Warren Spahn
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
2/25/2012 11:08 AM
jrd_x
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They were all better than Hunter?
2/25/2012 11:24 AM
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