Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 11:01:00 AM (view original):

I'll simplify it for you, chef jrd - the most effective thing you can do as a pitcher is keep runners off the basepaths. If there's no one on base, other factors matter very little, if at all - ballpark, weather, pitch selection, defense, etc. What stat measures that best? WHIP.  WHIP may not be an all encompassing super stat, but I will take the guy with the better WHIP 99% of the time. The only exception would be a guy with a huge sample size of starts that has shown, even when in trouble, he has a superhuman ability to strand runners.

Hunter kept runners of the basepaths better than Carlton did. That's the bottom line. Baseball 101 - unless you hit a ton of solo HRs, you can't score runs if no one's on base.

And yet Hunter allowed runs to score at a higher rate. Why? WHIP doesn't tell you much. Walk rate is important (Carlton's BB rate was better) but pitchers don't have much control over whether or not a ball in play becomes a hit.
2/25/2012 11:27 AM
Jtpsops
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Don't have much control? Funny, before it was they don't have "any" control. At least you're starting to realize the facts
2/25/2012 11:31 AM
Jtpsops
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 11:08:00 AM (view original):
jrd - What do the following pitchers have in common?

Warren Spahn
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
All 5 had shorter careers and fewer K's than Carlton - and I'd take all 5 in a heartbeat over him. I'm sure many would agree that these guys were all better pitchers than Carlton. And that's just 5 - there are plenty more. I might even throw Carlton's contemporary, Tom Seaver, in this category.
2/25/2012 11:33 AM
jrd_x
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Sure. I've never argued that Carlton was the best ever. He's just clearly better than Hunter.
2/25/2012 11:35 AM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 11:31:00 AM (view original):
Don't have much control? Funny, before it was they don't have "any" control. At least you're starting to realize the facts
Hunter's BABIP is something like .250.
Clemens BABIP is something like .286.

Clemens is in the argument for best pitcher of all time.
Hunter is a borderline Hall of Famer at best.

If Clemens can't control what happens to balls in play, Hunter certainly can't.
2/25/2012 11:39 AM
Jtpsops
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 11:35:00 AM (view original):
Sure. I've never argued that Carlton was the best ever. He's just clearly better than Hunter.
No, but you have argued that guys with higher K rates and longer careers are better. And both are false.
2/25/2012 11:57 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 11:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 11:01:00 AM (view original):

I'll simplify it for you, chef jrd - the most effective thing you can do as a pitcher is keep runners off the basepaths. If there's no one on base, other factors matter very little, if at all - ballpark, weather, pitch selection, defense, etc. What stat measures that best? WHIP.  WHIP may not be an all encompassing super stat, but I will take the guy with the better WHIP 99% of the time. The only exception would be a guy with a huge sample size of starts that has shown, even when in trouble, he has a superhuman ability to strand runners.

Hunter kept runners of the basepaths better than Carlton did. That's the bottom line. Baseball 101 - unless you hit a ton of solo HRs, you can't score runs if no one's on base.

And yet Hunter allowed runs to score at a higher rate. Why? WHIP doesn't tell you much. Walk rate is important (Carlton's BB rate was better) but pitchers don't have much control over whether or not a ball in play becomes a hit.
Fact check:

Hunter's BB/9 for his career was 2.5.
Carlton's BB/9 through '79 was 3.1, and then 3.2 for his career.

How is Carlton's BB rate "better"?

Does this go back to your inability to understand the meaning of "better", i.e. more is "better"?
2/25/2012 11:59 AM
jrd_x
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Both are false? No they're true. In general it's better to strike out batters at a high rate and have a long career.
2/25/2012 11:59 AM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/25/2012 11:59:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 11:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 11:01:00 AM (view original):

I'll simplify it for you, chef jrd - the most effective thing you can do as a pitcher is keep runners off the basepaths. If there's no one on base, other factors matter very little, if at all - ballpark, weather, pitch selection, defense, etc. What stat measures that best? WHIP.  WHIP may not be an all encompassing super stat, but I will take the guy with the better WHIP 99% of the time. The only exception would be a guy with a huge sample size of starts that has shown, even when in trouble, he has a superhuman ability to strand runners.

Hunter kept runners of the basepaths better than Carlton did. That's the bottom line. Baseball 101 - unless you hit a ton of solo HRs, you can't score runs if no one's on base.

And yet Hunter allowed runs to score at a higher rate. Why? WHIP doesn't tell you much. Walk rate is important (Carlton's BB rate was better) but pitchers don't have much control over whether or not a ball in play becomes a hit.
Fact check:

Hunter's BB/9 for his career was 2.5.
Carlton's BB/9 through '79 was 3.1, and then 3.2 for his career.

How is Carlton's BB rate "better"?

Does this go back to your inability to understand the meaning of "better", i.e. more is "better"?
You're right. I flipped them when I looked. Hunter's walk rate was better.
2/25/2012 12:01 PM
jrd_x
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Walk rate is still very important and it was one thing Hunter did better.
2/25/2012 12:02 PM
Jtpsops
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Keeping runners off the bases is important. Also something Hunter did better
2/25/2012 12:08 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Keeping runners off the bases is important. Also something Hunter did better
Agreed. But there needs to be an understanding why.

The BB rate is on Hunter and he gets credit for that. But the H part of WHIP is largely out of his hands. So you have to take that into consideration when evaluating Hunter.
2/25/2012 12:21 PM
tecwrg
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In other words, the only thing a pitcher can do that impacts the number of hits he allows is to strike batters out.

Do you realize how completely and utterly retarded that is?
2/25/2012 12:26 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Keeping runners off the bases is important. Also something Hunter did better
Agreed. But there needs to be an understanding why.

The BB rate is on Hunter and he gets credit for that. But the H part of WHIP is largely out of his hands. So you have to take that into consideration when evaluating Hunter.
You do realize you just killed your own argument in the last couple posts, right?

Hunter's walk rate is better than Carlton's. He gives up more hits, but by your own admission, those are out of his hands and beyond his control once they leave the bat.

Therefore, Hunter is the better pitcher, going by your logic.
2/25/2012 12:28 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 12:27:00 PM (view original):
You do realize you just killed your own argument in the last couple posts, right?

Hunter's walk rate is better than Carlton's. He gives up more hits, but those are beyond his control once they leave the bat.

Therefore, Hunter is the better pitcher, going by your logic.
Walk rate is important but it isn't the only thing that matters.
2/25/2012 12:28 PM
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