Happy Trails Mariano Topic

jrd_x
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/5/2012 3:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 5/5/2012 12:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/5/2012 12:03:00 PM (view original):
If he's the GOAT, he just might be a legendary player.
But he's not the greatest pitcher of all time.  He's probably the greatest non-starter but again...skinniest kid at fat camp.  Billy Wagner has very similar career stats and no one is arguing that he belongs among the all time greatest players.

Rivera is 1/3 great relief pitcher, 1/3 awesome playoff performances, and 1/3 Yankee hype.

"no one is arguing that he belongs among the all time greatest players"


There's a reason for that. 

 

 

And yet Wagner's stats are very similar to Rivera's.  Similar IP, similar, ERA, exact same WHIP, similar FIP, similar K rate, similar HR rate, similar BB rate.  

So maybe no one should be talking about Rivera as one of the greatest ever either.
5/5/2012 3:22 PM
Jtpsops
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Did Wagner do it over 15 years? Does he have as many saves as Rivera? Is his post-season resume as good as Rivera's? Did he ever pitch in an environment like NY?

Stop being a stat geek.

5/5/2012 3:43 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by jrd_x on 5/5/2012 11:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/5/2012 5:48:00 AM (view original):
I'd say you haven't watched much baseball over the last 15 years.    But even your stat book should tell you what you need to know.
It does. It tells me that Rivera was a great relief pitcher. He's a Hall of Famer. But he isn't some legendary player.
He IS legendary, because of A) most saves ever, and more importantly, B) greatest postseason pitcher of all time.  I know it's easier to keep runs off the board when youre going 1-2 innings at a time rather than 7-9, but you cannot argue with the numbers he put up.  He stepped up his game when the pressure was on.

EDIT: I also looked up Wagner's postseason numbers.  Wow.  They allowed the exact same amount of earned runs.
5/5/2012 3:47 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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The problem with statgeeks is they can't "feel" the game.   And it's pretty hard to explain it to them.     The best way to put it, and perhaps the simplest, was when teams would say "We need a three up, three down so Bonds will bat with no one one next inning."   In my lifetime, I can only think of three players that truly had the "feel" I'm talking about.  Bonds in his heyday, Rickey and Rivera.    They were just guys that you didn't want to let them do what they did.
5/5/2012 4:07 PM
Jtpsops
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This goes back to the HOF debate in this forum. Stat geeks look back and say "that guy sucks, how did he get in the hall???", because they have no clue what his actual contribution to the game was, or they don't consider there may have been other factors behind people voting them in.

The game goes beyond the stat line that shows up in the paper every day.
5/5/2012 4:09 PM
burnsy483
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I am in the group of people you'd call a "statgeek."  But its the reason I marvel at what Mariano did. 
5/5/2012 4:11 PM
MikeT23
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His stats are phenomenal.   And Wagner's may compare well.   But, for his career, no one said "OMG, don't let them get to Wagner or we're done."
5/5/2012 4:13 PM
augie_ojeda
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Rabbit Maranville consistently got votes for MVP in his day.  Yet stat geeks malign him. Will he ever get the justice that is his due too?
5/5/2012 4:34 PM
tecwrg
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jrd once again shows how little he knows about baseball beyond numbers on a page or screen.
5/5/2012 4:36 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by burnsy483 on 5/5/2012 4:11:00 PM (view original):
I am in the group of people you'd call a "statgeek."  But its the reason I marvel at what Mariano did. 
He's a Hall of Famer. But the hype for a relief pitcher is insane. Olney said he'd put Rivera ahead of Mantle. That's nuts.
5/5/2012 4:50 PM
trsnoke
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Mo's great.  But that is nuts.
5/5/2012 6:24 PM
Jtpsops
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Mo took over for Wetteland in '97 and never looked back. Could Robertson be the new 10+ year closer for the Yanks now?
5/5/2012 6:45 PM
MikeT23
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I hope so.  But he's in a no-win situation.  Never follow a legend.   At least that's what my exes tell their nextes.
5/5/2012 7:26 PM
antoncresten
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RIVERA IS TOAST

GODSPEED, ******
5/5/2012 8:00 PM
MikeT23
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WRONG, WRETARD!!!

5/5/2012 8:12 PM
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