Posted by burnsy483 on 6/11/2012 2:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/11/2012 2:18:00 PM (view original):
Vizquel??? Even in his best year he wasn't the league's best shortstop (or second best), he was never among the best players in the league, he was a good defensive shortstop with a below average bat. Nomar deserves to be on this list before Viquel.

At their best? Yes, Nomars better. But Vizquel also has a better glove and 1000 more hits.

I was also simply stating the player Mike was thinking of, not saying he should be on the list.

I get that you weren't suggesting Vizquel, just naming the player mike was alluding to.

I agree that Vizquel's glove was better but the 1000 more hits is kind of empty when you consider that Nomar had a vastly superior triple slash line.  The biggest knock against Nomar is that he only put together 6100 plate appearances.

hey Joe Sewall just called and told me, "Six pages on shortstops and not one mention? Screw them bastages!"

I'd be a little freaked out if dead people started calling me.

at first, but by now I'm pretty used to it......

Posted by edsortails on 6/11/2012 5:12:00 PM (view original):
hey Joe Sewall just called and told me, "Six pages on shortstops and not one mention? Screw them bastages!"

I don't know anything about him.  His OPS+ is 108 which isn't remarkable, though Jeter may end up in that neighborhood depending on how long he hangs on.

Here's how WAR is calculated for position players. That may clarify some things for people who take issue with certain aspects of it.

As for players who should be offended, Joe Cronin wants to know what the hell is going on.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 3:10:00 PM (view original):

Banks moved after his 30th birthday.  I think it's safe to say that it wasn't because of some young stud SS needing a place to play.

It matters because we're discussing a player's body of work and trying to rank him at a position.  I've always thought of Banks as a SS thru reading and the like.  Had I been watching Cubs baseball in 1965(at the age of 2), I might be making the same argument for him being a 1B.

Posada hit .235 with 14 homers, threw a hissy fit and still got just under 400 PA at 39 for 13m.

Feel like we're going around in circles, but WHY is Banks considered a SS and not A-Rod?

And can you name any SS not named Ripken with 345 home runs and 990 RBI who played shortstop? (using his Seattle and Texas numbers) Is it possible to not name him one of the best SS when he has these numbers?

It's pretty clear that if Banks qualifies as a shortstop for this exercise, Arod does too.  And if Arod qualifies as a shortstop, he easily lands above Jeter and in the top three all time.

Perception.   I was sure you'd understand that when I posted "I've always thought of Banks as a SS thru reading and the like.  Had I been watching Cubs baseball in 1965(at the age of 2), I might be making the same argument for him being a 1B."

Biggio is not a catcher, Ruth is not a pitcher, Mantle is not a 1B, Yogi is not an OF and Bench is not a 3B.

Is Hanley Ramirez a SS?  Will he be a SS in 6 seasons(assuming he stays with the Marlins)?

You can even do it with teams.   Is McGwire an A or a Card?   Is A-Rod a Yankee?

I guess the point is, while you perceive A Rod as a third baseman and Banks as a shortstop, but does this make it correct?  You're a Yankee fan, and perceive ARod as a 3rd baseman because thats 95% of what you've seen.  But you can also look at his history to determine what's actually correct, and what's fair.  ARod and Banks have similar experience at SS compared to where they've played the rest of their careers. 

I'm in my late 20s and much of what I remember about Ripken was as a middling 3B.  But I would be foolish to look at him that way rather than arguably the best SS of all-time.  I remember thinking it was bullshit that he was getting named to all-star teams when he was below-average at his new position. I know it's an extreme example, but I wouldn't sit here and judge Ripken now from what I percieved him to be when I have information that states otherwise, and the same should be said for A-Rod and Banks.

I'd be surprised if he got to 1000 more at 3b than SS.  He'll DH a lot.  And we'll see how he plays the last few years...he might be a 200-300 PA guy at best, splitting time at 3b/1b/DH if he can't hit well or can't stay healthy (which happens to a lot of 40-42 year olds).  We'll see.

Yes, it's your list, but we all argue with each other all the time about who's right and who's wrong, and that's what we're doing here.  The SS with 345 homers and 990 RBI makes my list of best shortstops.

Without seeing most of his posts, I'm guessing mike doesn't want to count Arod as a shortstop because then he'd have to admit that Arod ranks higher on the shortstop (and baseball player in general) list than Jeter.

BEST SHORTSTOP I  EVER SAW: DAVE CONCEPCION