You brought up Koufax because you wanted to compare him to Ruth and their short periods of success. Koufax's best years were significantly better than Ruth's.  Other guys with a 122 ERA+ - Jimmy Key, Carlos Zambrano, Dave Stieb.  Ruth was very good, but nowhere near Koufax at his prime.  (Bob Feller had that ERA+ too, but he was hurt significantly by so-so numbers the last 10 years of his career)

Ruth's hitting overshadowing his pitching does not equal ARod's Yankee years overshadowing Seattle/Texas years.  If you were a Mariner or Ranger fan and remembered his 7 silver sluggers and 2 gold gloves at shortstop, you'd be arguing something entirely different.

I think I know why I brought up Koufax and Sutter.   It had nothing to do with short periods of success.   They were just two HOF pitchers who didn't throw "significant" innings like Ruth.

I think A-Rod gets booed, heavily, in TEX/SEA.  I don't think any of their fans would argue A-Rod as "their" player. 

Koufax is in the HOF because of what he did over a 6 year span, which is something Ruth didn't do.  Bruce Sutter is a closer; it's difficult and unfair to compare Ruth to him for multiple reasons.

I'm not suggesting A-Rod would be cheered by Texas or Seattle fans.  But I don't think they'd be arguing anything close to what you're arguing.

To make it easier, call the fans "nuetral."  They aren't dismissing A-Rod's SS years.

It's difficult and unfair to compare a SS who played 15 years at SS to someone who skipped out of the SS position in his prime.

I don't think neutral fans acknowledge A-Rod's years in Seattle.  I understand what you're arguing, I really do.   Big baseball fans know A-Rod played in Texas.   Casual fans, or people who started following baseball 10 years ago, think of him as a Yankee 3B who did 'roids and hung out with Madonna.

IMO, all-time lists are really legacy lists.    Banks' legacy is as a Cubs SS.   Ruth's legacy is the inventor of the home run while with the Yankees. 

You're a big baseball fan.  So you know what A-Rod did as a shortstop.  He put up year-to-year numbers that were unprecedented for anyone at his position.  They were so good that when he stopped playing the position in his late 20s, he was already among history's best shortstops when considering counting stats.  It shouldn't be ignored.  That's my opinion.

I also just recongnized that you're holding A-Rod's voluntary move to 3B against him.  I'm not sure that's fair either, but I'm getting tired of arguing.  Neither of us are changing our opinions about this.

Personally, I feel that A-Rod had done all he intended to do as a SS(he was regarded as the best SS at the time).   His next goal was to be the all-time HR king.   As I mentioned previously, he began to "bulk up" in Tex.   In fact, it could be argued that he left Seattle, in part, because he didn't like hitting at Safeco.   Despite putting up insane numbers in Texas, he wasn't getting the attention he felt he deserved.   That would only come in the northeast.  Deal to Boston was killed by the union, the Mets had already declined on his services during FA.    I guess that left Philly and NYY.   I don't know if Philly was interested but the biggest stage is NYY.   He had to move to 3B to make that happen.  He did, voluntarily.  IF I believed he was/is a team-first guy, I'd give him credit for that.  But I don't think that's the case.

So, to me, he chose to become a 3B in order to increase his chances of becoming all-time leader in HR and increase his recognition within the game of baseball legends.

And, yes, I do find him to be a primadonna.   Had he not announced opting out of his contract DURING the WS, I'd have probably looked at him in a different manner.  But still as a 3B.

To further my point, 1 MVP at SS, 2 MVP at 3B.   Equal number of A/S games. 

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/15/2012 4:34:00 PM (view original):
It's difficult and unfair to compare a SS who played 15 years at SS to someone who skipped out of the SS position in his prime.

I don't think neutral fans acknowledge A-Rod's years in Seattle.  I understand what you're arguing, I really do.   Big baseball fans know A-Rod played in Texas.   Casual fans, or people who started following baseball 10 years ago, think of him as a Yankee 3B who did 'roids and hung out with Madonna.

IMO, all-time lists are really legacy lists.    Banks' legacy is as a Cubs SS.   Ruth's legacy is the inventor of the home run while with the Yankees. 

I agree with the bit about it being a legacy list. If it were a purely mathematical thing, we would just plug a formula into a computer and let it tell us who was best. But since we're using subjective standards, we're never going to fully agree. I tend to think of ARod as a SS because I'm a Texas fan, and I enjoyed watching him put up MVP numbers in his Texas years.

Kind of a similar debate with league MVPs. Should a pitcher (Verlander) be MVP? What about a DH? What standard do you use? It's all a bit fuzzy to me.

That's it summarized.    If it were pure stats, one could say "1000 games in enough to qualify" and start plugging stats into a formula.    Best all time doesn't work like that, IMO.

This guy probably comes in at 10a just for making all of Boston miserable for another 30 years.

The correct answers are:

1. Honus Wagner - a socialist and opponent of segregation in baseball who outplayed Ty Cobb when they met in the Series
2. Tulo - my sister lives in Denver and says he is better than Jeter so it must be true
3. Jeter - as to whether to count his postseason performance - yes, why should how well Derek Jeter played for 15 years against the best teams in baseball count toward understanding how good he is. There is the range issue, but that is not about how good he is, but about ability, which is another issue - players have brains too, and only one would have been standing by the first base line for that throw to get Jeremy Giambi, compensating for his lack of range ability by using his head to increase his range. 
4. The scooter Phil Rizzuto

5. Ozzie Smith
6. Arod is not a Yankee - I still do think of him as a Mariner and so do most Yankees fans. And he is not the best 3B in Yankees history either, that would be Graig Nettles. Who had good years with Cleveland but WAS a Yankee. It is a spiritual thing. As to the Mariners in those years, if I had to choose two position players for my team from those they would Edgar and Griffey. If the Mariners had had 8 players on the field that played like them they would have been in a few World Series. If I had to have a batter up with the WS on the line it would be Edgar. If I had to have someone at SS to do something about it it would be Jeter. 

So there. Much more cheerful thread than that Red Sox one here though. Very depressing that one. 

Graig Nettles?  The guy hit .253/.329/.433 with the Yankees.  Unless you're joking and really just making fun of the Yankees.  In that case, good job.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Graig Nettles?  The guy hit .253/.329/.433 with the Yankees.  Unless you're joking and really just making fun of the Yankees.  In that case, good job.

I guess you never heard of "defense".

They have advanced metrics for that now.  If you understood baseball, you'd probably know that.