Poll: Best Shortstop Evah Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
So, removing every aspect of pitching except strikeouts, walks and homeruns allowed makes it "advanced"?    Is that your contention?

Sure.  It more accurately measures the pitcher's contribution to run prevention.
Would it be fair to say that Ted Williams, when not a frozen head, knew more about hitting than you ever will?
6/25/2012 1:34 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:33:00 PM (view original):
Just wanted to make sure you knew you left something out.    You have tendency to halfass reply to half a post.     Didn't know if it was intentional or if you're so excited  to make a "point' that you just can't be bothered to read what someone wrote.
"they have advanced metrics for that now"

"that" was clearly referring to defense.  
6/25/2012 1:36 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
So, removing every aspect of pitching except strikeouts, walks and homeruns allowed makes it "advanced"?    Is that your contention?

Sure.  It more accurately measures the pitcher's contribution to run prevention.
Would it be fair to say that Ted Williams, when not a frozen head, knew more about hitting than you ever will?
Yes.  He would also know more about hitting than you.
6/25/2012 1:36 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
So, removing every aspect of pitching except strikeouts, walks and homeruns allowed makes it "advanced"?    Is that your contention?

Sure.  It more accurately measures the pitcher's contribution to run prevention.
Would it be fair to say that Ted Williams, when not a frozen head, knew more about hitting than you ever will?
Yes.  He would also know more about hitting than you.


Ted seems to think location is pretty important.   Would it be fair to say that pitchers control location, even on batted balls that don't leave the park?
6/25/2012 1:41 PM
jrd_x
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The pitcher controls pitch location.  What he doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole.  

We know that pitchers probably have some control over what happens to a ball in play, but we don't have a way to measure it.  So we use DIPS to take it out.  Yes, you might lose some pitcher skill, but you also eliminate all of the luck and all of the defense, which add in much more noise in ERA than you lose in DIPS.
6/25/2012 1:46 PM
MikeT23
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Ted seems to think there are zones where hitters can put the meat of the bat on the ball.     Would it be safe to say that keeping the ball off the meat of the bat is pretty important for a pitcher?   Wouldn't that have a lot to do with location?

6/25/2012 1:49 PM
MikeT23
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Also, is it your contention. that if we don't have an "accurate" way to measure a skill, that said skill should just be disregarded?

Because, if that's your contention, I don't have words to explain how ******* stupid that is.

6/25/2012 1:50 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:46:00 PM (view original):
The pitcher controls pitch location.  What he doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole.  

We know that pitchers probably have some control over what happens to a ball in play, but we don't have a way to measure it.  So we use DIPS to take it out.  Yes, you might lose some pitcher skill, but you also eliminate all of the luck and all of the defense, which add in much more noise in ERA than you lose in DIPS.
You want to argue about this **** again?

You're saying that a pitcher "doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole".  But apparently, with FIP, he does have control over whether a fly ball is caught on the warning track or clears the wall by a foot.

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
6/25/2012 1:51 PM
MikeT23
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No, he does not.
6/25/2012 1:54 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Are you just mad that I posted a picture of your titties?

If you have an argument that Nettles was better than Arod, great.  If not, STFU.
Nettles was a better third baseman defensively than ARod.

ARod is a better hitter than Nettles.

Nettles was one of the core players of the 1970's Yankees that won a couple of WS.

ARod was one of the core players of the 2000's Yankees that won a WS.

Context.
OK.

Stats give you context too.  Nettles played for the Yankees over 30 years ago.  Even if you watched every defensive play he was ever involved in, your memory might be a little fuzzy.

Nettles was very good defensively but we can look at the stats and see that the runs he saved with his glove were not nearly enough to overcome the advantage Arod has with the runs created with his bat.
6/25/2012 1:54 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:46:00 PM (view original):
The pitcher controls pitch location.  What he doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole.  

We know that pitchers probably have some control over what happens to a ball in play, but we don't have a way to measure it.  So we use DIPS to take it out.  Yes, you might lose some pitcher skill, but you also eliminate all of the luck and all of the defense, which add in much more noise in ERA than you lose in DIPS.
You want to argue about this **** again?

You're saying that a pitcher "doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole".  But apparently, with FIP, he does have control over whether a fly ball is caught on the warning track or clears the wall by a foot.

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
I'm not arguing that the pitcher can control whether or not a ball hits the top of the fence or clears it by a foot any more than him being able to control whether or not his centerfielder gets to a ball in the gap.


6/25/2012 1:56 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Also, is it your contention. that if we don't have an "accurate" way to measure a skill, that said skill should just be disregarded?

Because, if that's your contention, I don't have words to explain how ******* stupid that is.

If we can't measure it, how do we use it to evaluate a pitcher?
6/25/2012 1:59 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:46:00 PM (view original):
The pitcher controls pitch location.  What he doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole.  

We know that pitchers probably have some control over what happens to a ball in play, but we don't have a way to measure it.  So we use DIPS to take it out.  Yes, you might lose some pitcher skill, but you also eliminate all of the luck and all of the defense, which add in much more noise in ERA than you lose in DIPS.
You want to argue about this **** again?

You're saying that a pitcher "doesn't have much control over is whether or not a ground ball goes right at the shortstop or gets through the hole".  But apparently, with FIP, he does have control over whether a fly ball is caught on the warning track or clears the wall by a foot.

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
I'm not arguing that the pitcher can control whether or not a ball hits the top of the fence or clears it by a foot any more than him being able to control whether or not his centerfielder gets to a ball in the gap.


Yet that's an important component of FIP, as HRs are apparently under the pitcher's control.

How do you explain that?
6/25/2012 1:59 PM
jrd_x
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The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.
6/25/2012 2:01 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Also, is it your contention. that if we don't have an "accurate" way to measure a skill, that said skill should just be disregarded?

Because, if that's your contention, I don't have words to explain how ******* stupid that is.

If we can't measure it, how do we use it to evaluate a pitcher?
Shockingly, scouts and decision-makers have been evaluating pitchers without being able to put a number on location for, oh, I don't know, since the beginning of time.
6/25/2012 2:02 PM
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