I also think Kane is better than toews.... at least based on potential. I think they both play hard but kanes shot is more lethal.

Lidstrom should be in the top 20. He's better than Keith. Personally I think pronger is better than Keith too but i will keep my bias out of the argument.

Career-wise toews has 1 shg and 17 gwg. Kane has 0 shg and 16 gwg. Richie has 23 shg and 21 gwg.... toews and Kane are not top 10 players.

35% of both toews and kanes career goals are scored on power plays.

After their rookies seasons, someone said about them, "Kane will lead a team in scoring, Toews will lead a team to a Cup".  Truer words were never spoken.

Good game by the Flyers today.  Should be a good stretch here I hope.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 1/23/2011 8:31:00 PM (view original):
After their rookies seasons, someone said about them, "Kane will lead a team in scoring, Toews will lead a team to a Cup".  Truer words were never spoken.

Good game by the Flyers today.  Should be a good stretch here I hope.

BEARS SUCK!!!!!.......................Packer's Rock and RULE!!!

Posted by mudbone1969 on 1/23/2011 8:31:00 PM (view original):
After their rookies seasons, someone said about them, "Kane will lead a team in scoring, Toews will lead a team to a Cup".  Truer words were never spoken.

Good game by the Flyers today.  Should be a good stretch here I hope.

So that's how you qualify top 10 nhlers?

Posted by moy23 on 1/23/2011 8:08:00 PM (view original):
Career-wise toews has 1 shg and 17 gwg. Kane has 0 shg and 16 gwg. Richie has 23 shg and 21 gwg.... toews and Kane are not top 10 players.

Well if you want to bring stats into it, then how can you ignore the ones that matter most?

Toews - 1.08 career playoff points per game
Kane - 1.11 career playoff points per game
Richards - 0.82 career playoff points per game

The reason I don't put Lidstrom and Pronger in my top 20 is because I don't think they are there anymore. I did struggle with Lidstrom making that final spot though...That's not to say I don't think both are great though. They are arguably the top 2 defensemen of their generation (with Niedermayer) and I even consider Lidstrom to be one of the top 5 PLAYERS, let alone defensemen, I've ever seen. It was really tough when I got to 15-20.

To clarify, when I made my list I considered a few things (in no particular order):

1. scoring and playmaking ability, of course.
2. leadership
3. defensive awareness
4. versatility
5. fitness
6. ability to play well in clutch situations
7. importance to their team
8. character & heart

Now, we can debate for years, and I believe that at this stage of their young careers Richards is slightly ahead of Toews in development, but they are VERY similar players. They both are great captains, both are excellent faceoff men and responsible defensively, both have led their teams to Stanley Cup Finals and Olympic and World Junior Gold medals, and both are at their best when the stakes are high. So with all that in mind, out of curiosity I'd like to know what the reason (s) is as to why you think there is such a wide gap between Toews and Richards?

As for Pat Kane, he's a very dynamic offensive player, and he's getting better defensively, but I don't think he's even scratched the surface yet. I've seen glimpses of what he could be if he commits himself to being a complete player and it's scary, but until he matures a little I don't consider him to be close to a top 10 player.

I completely agree that Toews and Richards are very similar players (especially style and leadership ability). They both have heart - they both play big in clutch situations.

I think what distinctly seperates richie from toews (at least right now) is the following:

Richie has 23 career SHG vs 1 career SHG from Toews - I think this is a huge advantage since it puts PP teams back on defense when he is on the ice. Richie is considered best in nhl when playing short-handed.

Richie has a 75 point and an 80 point season and will probably get 75-80 again this season whereas Toews trends to maintain his 65-66 point average.

Toews S% has gone from 17% his 1st two years to 12% his last two. Trending down. Richards is trending up from 8% his 1st 2 seasons to ~14% consistantly over the last 4 seasons.

PP goals (imo) are easier to get than even stregnth or SHG. Toews gets 35% of his career goals from the PP. Richie gets 26% of his off the PP.

I think the seperation is more than 'slight' between the two... I'm not saying its a huge difference, but a bit more than slight (at least at this time in their careers).

Once Kane matures (as you said 'commits himself to being a complete player') and gets over the party all the time mentality he will be amazing. I've seen those glimpses as well.

Ok I was just curious. I do agree Richards is one of, if not the best penalty killer in the NHL right now and definitely the most complete player aside from Pavel Datsyuk and Sid.

There are a few points I will contest however:

Regardless of the perceived trend in the S% numbers you pointed out, I don't think we've seen the best out of either player. I believe both will end up putting up better seasons over the next 3-5 years than they have so far.

Powerplay goals should not diminish a player's value in my opinion. Many players have made great careers and become invaluable thanks to their performance on the PP. Dave Andreychuk, Brett Hull, Luc Robitaiile, Teemu Selanne and Mario Lemieux all scored between 34 and 42% of their goals on the PP, and they all finished with well over 600 career goals. No one's ever gonna dispute how great or valuable they were. Special teams are extremely important to a team's success, whether it be PP or SH, and not all great scorers can excel on the PP. But that being said, even if a lesser amount of PP production indicates the quality of said production, that's where it gets interesting:

Richards has often played the point on the PP whereas Toews never has, which could account for the PP goal percentage discrepancy. Further evidence of this can be discovered once you look at the fact that, over Toews' first 4 seasons he's accumulated 36% of his points on the PP. During that same span, Richards has put up 41% of his points on the PP, so while Toews has a higher percentage of his goals on the PP, Richie actually puts up more of his points.

When you throw in the fact that over the same 4 season span, the points per game (Toews 0.85, Richards 0.92) are close, and that Toews is 3 years younger, and I think the gap isn't as big as some may perceive.

To be clear, I do think Richards is slightly ahead of Toews, so please don't take it as me trying to be biased. It is an interesting debate though because of how similar they really are.

I'm only comparing them 'at this point in time' i.e. 2011. If you take Toews 1st two seasons and compare them to Richies 1st two - Toews is clearly the better player based on that. But at this point in time Toews looks like he will score 65 points again - whereas richards will hit high 70s again. Richie has been trendiing up on S% whereas Toews in the opposite direction.

All goals are important - so there you are correct about PP goals. I was more making the point that Richie is a much better even strength/SH goal scorer than Toews which I feel are more difficult goals to score than goals coming from a 1 or 2 man advantage. More of a minor difference in the grand scheme of things but richie is clearly the better even/sh goal scorer of the two.

I know richie is already in the 60s for blocks and hits this season.... not sure where Toews is at but I think, at least blocks, is important as well. Hits is important to the flyers system but not necessarily to the Hawks so comparing that might be useless.

I could also pose the idea that if you take Richies last 4 vs Toews last 4 the diff would be quite dramatic. Richie was not very good his 1st two seasons.

Definitely an interesting debate. Toews is a high effort / high impact player and I'm not saying he's not great by any means - just comparing two great players is all.

as a side.... The more I watch Stamkos the more I think he is going to be unstoppable in a couple seasons (kind of already is).