What to expect in tonight's game.

Hawks score first as Tampa tries to play with finesse. After the goal the lightning change it up and get physical. They target Toews on the boards and no one but seabrook steps up for the hawks fearless leader.... hawks meagerly retalliate but Tampa has them out of their game and making mistakes.... Tampa wins 3-2. Crawford cries that muddy said he was a lock for the Calder.

I overestimated the hawks talent.... damn. 1-0 TBL

Lindros was elite for a time, btw.  The Hart Trophy he won says so.

people forget what a dominant force liners was in his prime. few players in history combined his size, mean streak and finesse. if concussion didn't derail his career, I believe he would have been a sure fire hall of famer.

tough loss tonight. weird game though as I thought neither team showed much intensity. the two goaltenders were these best players on the ice.

I was looking for a leader on the hawks but did not find any as a back up goaltender blanked them.

Lindros by himself was not dominant. The legion of doom was.

 Sedin won the Hart ? F#ck you idiots.. 

 Toews is our 3rd line center ..chew on that D!ck wads

Posted by moy23 on 4/3/2011 10:12:00 PM (view original):
I was looking for a leader on the hawks but did not find any as a back up goaltender blanked them.

 They both play for the Thrashers

Posted by randle44 on 4/3/2011 10:30:00 PM (view original):
 Toews is our 3rd line center ..chew on that D!ck wads

4th liner on the flyers..... Richards, Carter, Giroux.

one thing you guys are forgetting here is that Crosby is also quickly gaining a reputation for being injury prone. The more time he spends on the DL, the less people will tend to think of him as elite.  Lemieux at least waited 6 or 7 years before starting to take prolonged winter vacations. Crosby started taking his right away.  As for who I would want as my team captain? Most likely the guy who keeps showing up every night.

Posted by holer on 4/4/2011 5:11:00 AM (view original):
one thing you guys are forgetting here is that Crosby is also quickly gaining a reputation for being injury prone. The more time he spends on the DL, the less people will tend to think of him as elite.  Lemieux at least waited 6 or 7 years before starting to take prolonged winter vacations. Crosby started taking his right away.  As for who I would want as my team captain? Most likely the guy who keeps showing up every night.

Thats a strong point - although past injury/health is not always correlated to future injury. Definitely a factor in a decision though. Too bad muddy didn't think of that instead of copy/pasting wiki for his argument.

My main point is that Toews is not 'much' better if at all better than most of the top players in the league - elite players ARE better than the rest. There is CLEAR seperation for elites imo. For instance - Richards is virtually identical to Toews in everything (Points, 2-way play, Leadership ability) - Is he elite too? Jeff Carter has 3 straight 30+ goal seasons and once again is over 20 +/-. Giroux has 74 points in his 2nd full season with 5 Gwg and 6 SHP. All three are team leaders. All three imo could be swapped in for Toews and perform similarly. NONE OF THEM CAN DO WHAT CROSBY OR OVECHKIN DO. (no bold option on this computer so you guys get caps lock ;)

I keep hearing the leadership argument like there is only one leader on a team.... thats not the case in the NHL. Richards might be the captain of the flyers but guys like Briere, Timonen, Pronger, Carter, Giroux, and Hartnell all step up and share the leadership role. Some guys don't - Carcillo, Bobrovsky, Versteeg, etc. Even thinking back to the Finals last season - It was Buffs leadership that turned that series around imo when he finally said enough is enough and took out Pronger... twice. Toews had nothing to do with that - in fact he hadn't scorerd in the first 4 games. Heck, Sharp carried the Hawks for a while earlier THIS season which just shows their are multiple leaders on a team.

Toews is heavy on the leadership scale and average on the points scale when comparing the nhl's best players. Elite players are heavy on BOTH leadership and points imo. Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier - They were heavy in both Leadership and Points. The players andru listed all were heavy in both Leadership and Points.

Ok. I was simply trying to make the point that a player doesn't necessarily have to lead the league in one particular category to be considered an elite player.

Now my position on Toews vs. Crosby and Toews being an elite player was already made pretty clear, but in terms of how Toews stackes up against Richards, Giroux and the rest of the Flyers, there is one very clear separator: a Stanley Cup. It's also what separates Marcel Dionne from the all-time greats. He put up fantastic offensive numbers, which in the end lead to absolutely nothing. Don't get me wrong, Richards, Carter and Giroux are 3 players I'd take on any team. They're excellent players, but until they win the big one questions will always follow them, especially Richards. Remember, Steve Yzerman took alot of heat for not being able to captain his team to a Cup until 97. People started to question whether he could do it too.

I agree that Byfuglien turned the series around with his big hit on Pronger, but if he was that much of a leader he wouldn't have disappeared in the second half of this season when the Thrashers were battling to make the playoffs. He's been absolutely abysmal since Jan. 1st and his inconsistency has once again come to the forefront, which is the biggest reason the Hawks were not the ones to give him 5 million per season. When you compare Sharp's play to Buff's over the course of the full season, I think it's pretty clear the Hawks made the right decision there.

As for Toews' performance last season, there's a reason he won the Conn Smythe, which is an award for the most valuable player in the PLAYOFFS, not just the finals. If there is no Toews, there is no Cup in 09-10.

agreed on the last sentence - I'm not questioning his leadership... I'm just saying there is more than 1 leader on a team and they all share the role. Toews is a great leader but not a great point producer. Elites are both imo.

Sharp was imo the right move for the hawks... but they miss Buff dearly. Their record shows this. Its unfortunate they f'd up in the front office and had to get rid of so many players after a great run. I was told the alumni were apparently commenting on lack of toughness last alumni dinner (beginning of March). they were mad that no one stands up for Toews and Kane when they take on hits and of course they dole out the "back in my day" a lot.... They mentioned losing Burish and Eager play a big part in that lack of toughness. I'd add Buff to that list.

True - Richie does not have a Stanley Cup - but he has been to the playoffs both years as a captain, took a 7 seed to game 6 of the stanley cup finals, and has his team #1 seeded with 3 games to play - not bad for a player so young. He does need to win one to dispell the critics. Then again - Richie has done pretty well for himself - if you recall he was the Patrick Kane party animal of the NHL back in 2005-2006-2007. No one talks about that anymore. Regardless - even if Richie wins the Conn Smythe and the Stanley Cup this season I still will not say he is an elite player. He's replacable with many of the NHL's stars imo just like Toews.... and unlike Sid and Ovi.