Speaking of elite players though, how do you not give Corey Perry the Hart throphy this season? He's been at or within a goal of 0.5 goals per game every month this season, and he's got 19 in his last 16, the most crucial time of the year.

That makes me wonder...perhaps we were looking at the "elite players" debate all wrong. Maybe the list of "elite" players fluctuates every season. For example, I'd consider Perry an elite player this season. Same for Tim Thomas and Zdeno Chara. They've simply been unstoppable, although I'm not sure I'd put them in the "elite" category last season or any other year. Alex Ovechkin has not looked even close to Perry or even D.Sedin. Although he's an alite talent, I don't believe he's played his way into the elite category this year.

Ovechkin has not played to his usual 50 goal, 100 point status.... but he still has Washington in 1st place despite two rookie goalies, leads the NHL in gwg with 11 (which is 25% of Washington's wins), has more than 150 more hits than a player like Toews, and averages a point+ a game. I think an argument could be made for him but its more of a stretch than his last 4 or 5 seasons.

Posted by moy23 on 4/7/2011 7:47:00 AM (view original):
Ovechkin has not played to his usual 50 goal, 100 point status.... but he still has Washington in 1st place despite two rookie goalies, leads the NHL in gwg with 11 (which is 25% of Washington's wins), has more than 150 more hits than a player like Toews, and averages a point+ a game. I think an argument could be made for him but its more of a stretch than his last 4 or 5 seasons.

Ok now you're just being biased against Toews moy.

First of all, hits aren't necessarily a measure of a player's status or quality as much as they are an indication of his playing style. Sidney Crosby will never lead the league in hits. He will never even be in the top 50 or maybe even 100. That doesn't take anything away from him because that's simply not how he plays. Toews is not a player who hits, so obviously he can never compare. In addition, I can make statistics say whatever I want too when comparing Toews and Ovi. Observe:

- Toews and Ovechkin have eached scored 32 goals, however Toews' shooting percentage is a full 5% better than Ovi's (13.9 to 8.9). At that percentage, if Toews had taken the amount of shots Ovi has this season, he would be at exactly 50 goals.

- Toews has 28 giveaways and 90 takeaways to Ovi's 59 giveaways and 48 takeaways, allowing his team to play with the puck much more often.

Both Toews and Ovechkin have had good seasons in different ways, but in no way is one obviously better than the other on an individual basis. If you start stating team success as a way of comparing Toews and Ovechkin, then every argument made for Toews' status as an elite player regarding his Stanley Cup and Gold Medals is instantly validated, therefor making him an elite player based on that alone.

In addition, I thought I'd throw an updated comaprison of Toews and Richie, since you so quickly pointed out earlier in the season that Richards was better because of the fact that his shooting percentage was so much better while being tied in virtually every other category...

Toews: 32 G, 44 A, +23, 26 PIMs, 10 PPG, 1 SHG, 8 GWG, 13.9 SH%, 28 GvA, 90 TkA, 56.6 FO%, 73 Hits, 26 Blocks, 1:59 SHTOI, 3:07 PPTOI
Richards: 23 G, 42 A, +12, 58 PIMs, 5 PPG, 3 SHG, 4 GWG, 12.6 SH%, 46 GvA, 60 TkA, 49.5 FO%, 100 Hits, 71 Blocks, 2:08 SHTOI, 2:56 PPTOI

two things.... one is i said Ovechkin 'could' make a case and I listed some reasons... not that he 'is' playing up to his normal elite self. second - richie has sucked it up this season and I'd tell him that to his face if I met him today. His season has been terrible and if Toews is even close to richie this season then he is far from elite.

btw - I understand hits equals a different style of play - but ovechkin as FAR FAR AHEAD of any other top forward in that category which is interesting - again seperating him from the bunch. I thought Richie was physical until I saw ovechkins #s.

And I'm saying that if you could make a case for Ovi, then you have to say the same about Toews based on ALL their numbers. There's not alot separating the two this season. Granted Ovechkin is having an off-season while Toews is having a career year (offensively), but I'm only talking about this season, not overall.

Hits don't necessarily equate to physical play. Johan Franzen is a good example of a player who uses his size well and plays a physical game, but doesn't necessarily hit people all the time. Ovechkin, while he does usually lead the league (or is close) in hits among forwards, usually is very reckless with his physicality and sometimes that does more harm than good.

So Toews has made it to the final of the NHL's "Vote for the Ultimate Leader" and will be facing off againts either Nicklas Lidstrom or Ryan Kesler...

http://ultimateleader.nhl.com/battle/174

Posted by andru2797 on 4/7/2011 1:10:00 PM (view original):
So Toews has made it to the final of the NHL's "Vote for the Ultimate Leader" and will be facing off againts either Nicklas Lidstrom or Ryan Kesler...

http://ultimateleader.nhl.com/battle/174

more of a reason muddy should take me up on that bet....

$50 muddy - surely nhl.com's ULTIMATE leader can get his team to the second round.... Right?



btw Muddy - blackhawks cancelled the alumni dinner and rescheduling is TBD. Got the email today... but it bodes pretty well for me to ask that question once the hawks are out of the playoffs in the first round and the pens are still advancing.

Apparently Turco has $500 on the Canucks winning Round 1.

Posted by peter_puck on 4/7/2011 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Apparently Turco has $500 on the Canucks winning Round 1.

Unfortunately for the Canucks he's 0-for-1 in hockey bets this season.

Posted by moy23 on 4/6/2011 11:09:00 PM (view original):
Really though..... you just proved to me that Toews is not elite.... thanks for not taking the 2nd round bet. I feel soooo good right now!!!

Wrong...that proved zilch.

Bring your wallet to Wrigleyfest!!!

Posted by andru2797 on 4/7/2011 9:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 4/7/2011 7:47:00 AM (view original):
Ovechkin has not played to his usual 50 goal, 100 point status.... but he still has Washington in 1st place despite two rookie goalies, leads the NHL in gwg with 11 (which is 25% of Washington's wins), has more than 150 more hits than a player like Toews, and averages a point+ a game. I think an argument could be made for him but its more of a stretch than his last 4 or 5 seasons.

Ok now you're just being biased against Toews moy.

First of all, hits aren't necessarily a measure of a player's status or quality as much as they are an indication of his playing style. Sidney Crosby will never lead the league in hits. He will never even be in the top 50 or maybe even 100. That doesn't take anything away from him because that's simply not how he plays. Toews is not a player who hits, so obviously he can never compare. In addition, I can make statistics say whatever I want too when comparing Toews and Ovi. Observe:

- Toews and Ovechkin have eached scored 32 goals, however Toews' shooting percentage is a full 5% better than Ovi's (13.9 to 8.9). At that percentage, if Toews had taken the amount of shots Ovi has this season, he would be at exactly 50 goals.

- Toews has 28 giveaways and 90 takeaways to Ovi's 59 giveaways and 48 takeaways, allowing his team to play with the puck much more often.

Both Toews and Ovechkin have had good seasons in different ways, but in no way is one obviously better than the other on an individual basis. If you start stating team success as a way of comparing Toews and Ovechkin, then every argument made for Toews' status as an elite player regarding his Stanley Cup and Gold Medals is instantly validated, therefor making him an elite player based on that alone.

In addition, I thought I'd throw an updated comaprison of Toews and Richie, since you so quickly pointed out earlier in the season that Richards was better because of the fact that his shooting percentage was so much better while being tied in virtually every other category...

Toews: 32 G, 44 A, +23, 26 PIMs, 10 PPG, 1 SHG, 8 GWG, 13.9 SH%, 28 GvA, 90 TkA, 56.6 FO%, 73 Hits, 26 Blocks, 1:59 SHTOI, 3:07 PPTOI
Richards: 23 G, 42 A, +12, 58 PIMs, 5 PPG, 3 SHG, 4 GWG, 12.6 SH%, 46 GvA, 60 TkA, 49.5 FO%, 100 Hits, 71 Blocks, 2:08 SHTOI, 2:56 PPTOI

Wait, you just figured out NOW that moy is biased against Toews?  He's been hating on him since he raised the Cup on Philly ice on June 9, 2010.  He'll never give him credit, even after he loses our bet and he's getting me drunk at Wrigleyfest.

Posted by moy23 on 4/7/2011 1:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by andru2797 on 4/7/2011 1:10:00 PM (view original):
So Toews has made it to the final of the NHL's "Vote for the Ultimate Leader" and will be facing off againts either Nicklas Lidstrom or Ryan Kesler...

http://ultimateleader.nhl.com/battle/174

more of a reason muddy should take me up on that bet....

$50 muddy - surely nhl.com's ULTIMATE leader can get his team to the second round.... Right?



btw Muddy - blackhawks cancelled the alumni dinner and rescheduling is TBD. Got the email today... but it bodes pretty well for me to ask that question once the hawks are out of the playoffs in the first round and the pens are still advancing.

Yeah, I looked on the alumni website when we made the bet.  I saw no dinner scheduled.  Could it be that you were full of ****?

No sense in making any playoff bet until things are settled and we see who is healthy.  If Sharp re-tweaks his knee, I surely wouldn't like our chances.

Posted by peter_puck on 4/7/2011 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Apparently Turco has $500 on the Canucks winning Round 1.

Well played!!

if you want to knowwhat MuddytheNarc thinks ? ask Mrs Muddy,if you wanna know what MuddytheNarc ate last nite ? ask andru to spit in a cup and have it analyzed