STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS 2009-10 Topic

andru2797
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Posted by moy23 on 11/25/2011 8:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by andru2797 on 11/24/2011 3:11:00 PM (view original):
Like I said, I have a hard time putting anyone in sids class, which is why I lumped the rest in the 2nd tier. We've had this argument before, but I think toews brings arguably as much to a team as ovie does, just in different ways. Ovie scores and hits more. Toews wins faceoffs and plays excellent defense. Sid becomes the best at anything he sets out to improve (in his game). That's why he's in a class by himself.
He doesn't 'just' score more. He scored more than anybody in the NHL over the last 6 seasons (including Crosby with 576 points in 6 seasons and Toews 286 in 4 seasons, Ovie's at 630). That's best of the best material. Toews wins more faceoffs cause he's a center. Ovie plays the wing. You are practically saying Toews is as good a young jaromir jagr cause he wins more faceoffs and plays better defense. I disagree... jagr was elite imo, and Ovie has even better numbers than him. If Ovie plays 10 more seasons he is a top 10 alltime points leader in the NHL.
No I'm not. I was merely stating that, at this point in time, there's very little to choose between the two because ovie doesn't seem to be the same offensive force he was 2 years ago, while toews has gotten better.

Anyway its an interesting debate. I'll tell you what: you phrase a question involving toews's place in the game and his status right now, and ill ask some people who are way smarter than us. I'm lucky enough to be friendly with a couple of nhl players, a few media people and some minor league coaches and players. I'll do a survey of about 10 people.

On an unrelated note, very interesting article about the physical side of the game here: http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/11/24/hits-received-who-is-and-isnt-getting-hit-in-the-nhl/
11/25/2011 12:59 PM
andru2797
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Safe to say this has been an "elite" level performance by captain serious? Lol...wow did he and Keith ever take over the game in the 3rd...
11/25/2011 6:26 PM
moy23
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Toews = Ovie for a day ;)
11/25/2011 6:49 PM
andru2797
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Posted by moy23 on 11/25/2011 6:49:00 PM (view original):
Toews = Ovie for a day ;)
Oh look...a won faceoff led to Toews' latest goal...yeah, faceoffs are overrated......
11/26/2011 11:59 PM
randle44
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Toews is the Canucks 3rd line center ,and thats is not a slag at Toews..just reality..Henrik and Kesler are better players ..so that makes Sedin and Kesler elite
11/27/2011 12:05 AM
andru2797
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Posted by randle44 on 11/27/2011 12:05:00 AM (view original):
Toews is the Canucks 3rd line center ,and thats is not a slag at Toews..just reality..Henrik and Kesler are better players ..so that makes Sedin and Kesler elite
#delusional
11/27/2011 12:42 AM
randle44
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how so Andru? art ross winner in Henrik and 41 goals by Kesler and a dominating superman type series against Nashville ..Captain serious did squat against Canucks ...delusional ? im curious how you come to that ? 
 

11/27/2011 12:45 AM
andru2797
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Posted by randle44 on 11/27/2011 12:45:00 AM (view original):

how so Andru? art ross winner in Henrik and 41 goals by Kesler and a dominating superman type series against Nashville ..Captain serious did squat against Canucks ...delusional ? im curious how you come to that ? 
 

Just kidding mostly...I'm not saying Toews is elite and Sedin and Kesler aren't...but they are all comparable. Kesler plays alot like toews with, in my opinion, less natural offensive ability and more physicality. They both win faceoffs and play excellent defense. Sedin is a fantastic passer and elite point producer, but a totally different player as he is just ok on faceoffs and has zero physicality to his game.

The biggest difference so far in their careers has been that Toews has won all the team awards (and the Conn Smythe) while Sedin and Kesler have won the individual awards. If I had the choice to take one on my team, it would be between Toews and Kesler, and I'd pick Toews only because Kesler has had some injury issues. Sedin to me is a great scorer, but not a guy who will win you a Championship.

That's my take.
11/27/2011 12:51 AM
randle44
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OK i can respect that ..i dont think Sedin or Kesler are dog meat compared to Toews...truth be told i would probably take the Canadian  Toews over Kesler the American and the Swede Sedin..because im Canadian ...but the other 2 deserve their props and right now i believe both Canucks are slightly better than Toews..no slight to Toews
11/27/2011 12:59 AM
moy23
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Giroux would still be the #1 center on Philly if Toews was on the team.... But I'm not calling Giroux elite. Giroux is not Sid Crosby.
11/27/2011 1:04 AM
moy23
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Hawks fans don't value individual awards. Ovie has 3x the medals in his trophy case but Toews is better in their opinion.
11/27/2011 1:07 AM (edited)
andru2797
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Posted by moy23 on 11/27/2011 1:07:00 AM (view original):
Hawks fans don't value individual awards. Ovie has 3x the medals in his trophy case but Toews is better in their opinion.
Not better...different. Ovie has more natural ability than Toews, and if this was Tennis I'd take the Great 8 all day. But this is a team sport, and there are few team players who are the leader that Toews is.

As for Giroux, he's had one season of 76 points, the same career high (in points) as Toews, never scored over 25 in a season and hasn't won a thing, team or individual. So in saying you would take Giroux over Toews, you are in fact basing it on nothing more than opinion based on what you've seen, therefor making it a SUBJECTIVE decision, for which I can't fault you. HOWEVER, it would be slightly hypocritical to then criticize Hawks fans for doing the same in the Toews-Ovie (or Sedin, or Giroux, etc) argument.
11/27/2011 1:21 AM
andru2797
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Posted by randle44 on 11/27/2011 12:59:00 AM (view original):
OK i can respect that ..i dont think Sedin or Kesler are dog meat compared to Toews...truth be told i would probably take the Canadian  Toews over Kesler the American and the Swede Sedin..because im Canadian ...but the other 2 deserve their props and right now i believe both Canucks are slightly better than Toews..no slight to Toews
Hard to argue here...this season will probably tip the scales, and so will the next 7. In the end, these 3 will probably only be comparable once they've all retired.
11/27/2011 1:24 AM
randle44
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of course im biased..all 3 are a pretty close , but in the playoffs Kesler and Toews have the edge over any Euro
11/27/2011 1:30 AM
moy23
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Posted by andru2797 on 11/27/2011 1:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 11/27/2011 1:07:00 AM (view original):
Hawks fans don't value individual awards. Ovie has 3x the medals in his trophy case but Toews is better in their opinion.
Not better...different. Ovie has more natural ability than Toews, and if this was Tennis I'd take the Great 8 all day. But this is a team sport, and there are few team players who are the leader that Toews is.

As for Giroux, he's had one season of 76 points, the same career high (in points) as Toews, never scored over 25 in a season and hasn't won a thing, team or individual. So in saying you would take Giroux over Toews, you are in fact basing it on nothing more than opinion based on what you've seen, therefor making it a SUBJECTIVE decision, for which I can't fault you. HOWEVER, it would be slightly hypocritical to then criticize Hawks fans for doing the same in the Toews-Ovie (or Sedin, or Giroux, etc) argument.
Speaking of opinion.... How's frolik doing this season?

In my subjective opinion Giroux has more upside than Toews. On a more factual basis Ovie has 2 MVPs , which stands for'most valuable player'. How many does Toews have?
11/27/2011 1:40 AM (edited)
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