I have Tim Raines '81, who has less PA than everyone else in my lineup, but whose stats I love otherwise.  Would it be beneficial to pull a Tony Larussa and bat him 9th, right after the pitcher at number 8?

Has anyone ever tried this in the Sim?  Has it ever provided an extra spark when you reach the top of the lineup again?  By the way, at the top of my lineup, I have Raines '86, Howard Johnson '89, and Cravath '15

If you think about it, other than the first inning the guy batting 9th will function like a lead-off hitter since your 8th spot will be a pitcher (who's going to make an out more often than not.) It's a great to way get a 500-600pa player to stay in most games without fatigueing.  In a progressive I'm in, I've got rookie Rod Carew (1967) with 561pa.  He's been batting ninth and probably hasn't had to miss more than 1 game due to fatigue after about 46 games in.  I've done this alot with good results as far as the fatigue issue.  

I've done this with the .390 hitting John McGraw with fairly decent success. It's definitely only worth it for fatigue reasons, but if you got a low PA-guy, especially one with a good OBP and/or speed, it can work well.

Posted by uncleal on 4/15/2011 3:40:00 PM (view original):
I've done this with the .390 hitting John McGraw with fairly decent success. It's definitely only worth it for fatigue reasons, but if you got a low PA-guy, especially one with a good OBP and/or speed, it can work well.

I disagree it's only worth it for fatigue reasons. I almost always hit my pitcher 8th in non-DH leagues, while slotting my best hitter 2nd.

I often bat the pitcher 8th to preserve fatigue. The ideal #9 hitter is a good defender I want to keep his glove in the lineup, he's a low power 2nd leadoff hitter, and/or he's a weak hitter I drafted to save money. The ideal #8 pitcher is one who can hit better than average for a pitcher. In low cap leagues it's not uncommon to bat pitchers higher in the order, sometimes leadoff.

Fatigue is the only logical reason to bat the worst hitter anywhere other than 9th.

Posted by ncmusician_7 on 4/15/2011 5:38:00 PM (view original):
Fatigue is the only logical reason to bat the worst hitter anywhere other than 9th.

This is not true at all.  Ok, it's kinda true.  But not really.  The difference between the average number of plate appearances 8- and 9-hole hitters get in a season is small enough that it can actually be beneficial in certain lineups to put a better bat in the 9 spot.  Lineup efficiency exists.

Posted by grizzly_one on 4/15/2011 6:19:00 PM (view original):
I know this goofy guy that, believe it or not, always bats his pitcher 1st.

Are you serious? How well does it actually work to bat the pitcher first?

Well, grizzly is one of the most successful owners in WIS, so...

Posted by dn8779 on 4/15/2011 6:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by grizzly_one on 4/15/2011 6:19:00 PM (view original):
I know this goofy guy that, believe it or not, always bats his pitcher 1st.

Are you serious? How well does it actually work to bat the pitcher first?

I had a couple of teams that I did that with and won championships... the key is to have good hitting pitchers.

Posted by zubinsum on 4/16/2011 3:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dn8779 on 4/15/2011 6:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by grizzly_one on 4/15/2011 6:19:00 PM (view original):
I know this goofy guy that, believe it or not, always bats his pitcher 1st.

Are you serious? How well does it actually work to bat the pitcher first?

I had a couple of teams that I did that with and won championships... the key is to have good hitting pitchers.

How good are those pitchers at hitting?  I'm not criticizing, I am just genuinely curious.  Essentially, by always having the pitcher bat first, pitchers are ultimately getting the most at bats in the lineup.  This doesn't hurt production in any way?  

What's the advantage that you get from batting the pitcher first?  

Thank you all for your input!

Since pitcher PAs don't cost you anything in terms of fatigue, batting the pitcher higher is a good way to get free PAs, as long as the pitcher's hitting is good enough to justify it

I normally bat the pitcher 8th and put a good glove, high OBP, low SLG, relatively low PA guy 9th.

I also regularly use the No. 9 hole strategy. Sometimes in low caps I draft two leadoff types with low PA and switch them between the 1 hole and the 9 hole as needed to take care of fatigue. If you pair this strategy with the strategy of starting pitchers who mostly go 5-6 innings, then you also get PH appearances in the 8 hole in the latter innings. And discard any misgivings you may have about running a position player at 94-98% freshness/fatigue.

The most important strategy of all in low- to mid-size caps is to minimize cost where possible in order to gain the most strength possible in key positions.

Here's an irony. you move the pitcher up to conserve stamina. You draft better hitting pitchers because they're batting higher in the lineup. Because they make fewer outs the guys behind them get more PA. so you don't really save on stamina all you get is more hits.