Evaluating the value of CF defense Topic

firesalt
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At what point do I choose the better hitter over the better fielder at CF? As a hypothetical example, if Itchy Roe has an OPS# of .775 and fielding stats of C/A+ (5.80) and Mad Ducks is a C/C fileder, how high does Ducks' OPS# need to be before you should choose him over Roe if all other factors are equal? What if his range is 6.20? How much variation would there be based on the stadium specs?
10/29/2011 2:41 PM
rbow923
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I don't use OPS# here I just count the number of plays. if the difference between A+ and C range is say 10 plays then I'd want 10 extra hits from the batter, adjusting for other factors. I suppose a pitchers ballpark would tilt the balnce toward glove but the difference is so small I ignore it.

10/30/2011 10:09 AM (edited)
jfranco77
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10 hits over 700 PAs is about 14 points of batting average. Also 14 points of OBP. It's something like 20 points of SLG because some of the hits prevented would be doubles/triples, but the flip side of that is that sometimes a play not made is just a single becoming a double.

5.80 and 6.20 seem like RRF numbers for SS, not CF. 
10/30/2011 2:45 PM
firesalt
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yeah, 5.80 would be some serious defense for an OF. I have OF and SS on my mind though. I have noticed how SS with 30-35 errors win gold gloves in sim because of their 25-35 + plays. It seems that the sim weighs a + play more heavily than an error. I can only figure it is that some of those errors are on balls most SS would never touch.
10/30/2011 5:59 PM
thunder1008
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Firesalt, I just bumped up an excellent jfranco77 thread on range that should be helpful to you.  I consider it the definitive thread on range in the Forums.
10/30/2011 8:06 PM
firesalt
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Thanks thunder, I just read it and my head is spinning. I have a ton of Qs, and I am not sure where to start. From a few things I have read (not all in jfranco's thread), I am getting the impression that your pitcher affects your defense significantly. Does a deadball pitcher make your D worse because his RL D was lousy?  Also, as a result of the jfranco thread, should we value 3B range more highly than we used to? Concerning the 1B range that produced fewer DPs for better range, isn't there a very small number of DPs begun by a 1B? With such a small sample the number may just be an anomaly. In any case, how do you value a 1B range? No differently than before jfranco's study? How important is 1B range compared to 3B range?
10/31/2011 12:18 AM
pinotfan
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Posted by firesalt on 10/30/2011 5:59:00 PM (view original):
yeah, 5.80 would be some serious defense for an OF. I have OF and SS on my mind though. I have noticed how SS with 30-35 errors win gold gloves in sim because of their 25-35 + plays. It seems that the sim weighs a + play more heavily than an error. I can only figure it is that some of those errors are on balls most SS would never touch.
The Sim definitely weighs a + play over lack of errors when determining Gold Glove.  I'm in a theme right now that as of Game 141 not a single fielder on my team has committed an error (other than Catcher, who has 7) and not a single one leads for Gold Glove.  Ironically, the Catcher IS the Gold Glove leader!
10/31/2011 1:14 AM
bottomlee
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From what I've gathered, Deadballers hurt your defense, while modern pitchers help, or maybe dont hurt your defense slightly.....some people seem to only draft opposites, deadball pitching, modern fielders, or deadball hitters and modern pitchers.....apparently the (modern/deadball) era of the batter has an ever-so-slight impact on the fielding too......I havent been bothered to be so strict towards this yet, I've in my very-limited slightly above averageness just drafted a mix of players and pitchers who feel right, mixing offense and some D
10/31/2011 3:43 PM
clackumus
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Gold glove awards are worthless in my book. I want championships. I usually want an a+ range cf. Especially in1b+ parks, the more 1b+ the more hits are likely,thus the more the a+ defender takes away.  However the better defender the more likley his price to be higher. Defense is exspensive, so sometimes I use higher k pitchers and less on defense.
10/31/2011 3:56 PM
mixtroy
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I always go with the bat in the OF, and range be damned, because I've always believed that range is overrated in this game.
11/1/2011 12:21 PM
mixtroy
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I don't recall ever winning a WS with a great fielding or range team. Most of the time I have D- range guys.
11/1/2011 12:22 PM
Trentonjoe
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The value in good defense is needing either less total innings or less expensive innings.   I don't think it cost effective in OL style leagues to spend on defense but in progressives and limited option themes defense has a tremendous value.
11/1/2011 12:27 PM
clackumus
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I agree range is overated, however if your in a + hits park, say Hilltop for example.  If your using low strikeout pitchers especially, you need good range on your outfielders. Otherwise opponents are going to drop lots of hits in on you.
11/1/2011 1:09 PM
pfattkatt
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Posted by clackumus on 11/1/2011 1:09:00 PM (view original):
I agree range is overated, however if your in a + hits park, say Hilltop for example.  If your using low strikeout pitchers especially, you need good range on your outfielders. Otherwise opponents are going to drop lots of hits in on you.
IMO that is the only time ++ range is justified, in the huge parks, like hilltop. or the POTF, AND where they are + 1b parks as well. That said, I certainly have seen many players I would never draft on championship teams.
11/1/2011 5:15 PM
dahsdebater
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Posted by clackumus on 10/31/2011 3:56:00 PM (view original):
Gold glove awards are worthless in my book. I want championships. I usually want an a+ range cf. Especially in1b+ parks, the more 1b+ the more hits are likely,thus the more the a+ defender takes away.  However the better defender the more likley his price to be higher. Defense is exspensive, so sometimes I use higher k pitchers and less on defense.
I'm not sure this is a cost-effective compensation.  Pitchers' Ks are the second most overpriced attribute in the sim behind A+ arms on low-PA catchers.
11/2/2011 6:44 PM
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